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How to tell when someone is lying?

newyorker.com

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Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#71

Post by oska »

She confessed to murdering Karissa—she wanted to save her faltering relationship with her boyfriend, she told the court, and he’d told her that she would have to choose between him and the child—and described in quiet detail her daughter’s final moments.

Is there any good research on the behaviour of women in these situations? Obviously this is the extreme case - murdering your own child to save your relationship with your partner - but I would be interested in broader research in this area on how mothers deal with disinterest or hostility to their offspring by a partner.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#72

Post by jaekwon »

0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #31
mathattack wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something very Godelesque in that comment. It's kind of like having so many teachers who were weak students.

Or so many writers pretending to be hackers.

I don't believe that any of us believe what we are writing.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#73

Post by oska »

arkad wrote: post #44

There is a scene in Polish crime movie "Psy" (great movie BTW, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105185/ ), where a bad guy answers this question by saying: "Noone ever lied with a car battery connected to his balls"

[1] Effectiveness of torture for interrogation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_in...

[2] Torture Has a Long History ... of Not Working

http://www.livescience.com/4651-torture-long-history-working...

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#74

Post by whtrbt »

justinreeves wrote: post #68
conanbatt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read once that experienced detectives are worse at telling lies than rookies. The article theorized that old-timey detectives get very confident on their intuition and experience, so they assume they are right on a hunch sooner than rookies. The latter, unexperienced as they are,look harder at the facts and are more humble about guessing right or wrong. There is something dangerous in believing you have the key to…

>Criminal profilers might qualify as experts in court, saying someone "fits the profile", helping the state make a case, while their profiling could be totally wrong, as it was in the famous sniper case, where they went with the classic "middle aged caucasian" and the killer was black and with his son(?) as an accomplice. What case is this? Also, is "middle ages caucasian" some kind of trope in police investigations?…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

"It was widely speculated that a single sniper, initially identified as a white man with assumed military experience, was using the Interstate 495 Capital Beltway for travel, possibly in a white van or truck. It was later learned that the rampage was perpetrated by John Allen Muhammad, and a minor, Lee Boyd Malvo, then aged 17 and originally from Jamaica, driving a blue 1990 Chevrolet Caprice sedan."

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#75

Post by zvrba »

Destitute wrote: post #49

Here is the video that Brinke saw and identified her as lying, can you? http://vimeo.com/55997359

Because she holds her hand on her chin, and the hand is very active, she appears as if she were thinking really hard about what to say. A truly concerned parent wouldn't need to think hard.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#76

Post by thaumasiotes »

sirdogealot wrote: post #69

Maybe it's just that the article was written by a woman. (As I could easily see my significant other behaving in this manner when she was "out with her girlfriends".) But, does anybody on HN actually relate to this paragraph below? >I might open a conversation, for instance, by saying how nice it is to meet someone—when I’m really not at all happy about it. I might go on to say that I grew up in Boston—a lie, technic…

>> I might go on to say that I grew up in Boston—a lie, technically, since I really grew up in a small town about forty minutes outside the city.

> I am proud to say that I relate to none of those examples.

I can relate to the one I highlighted. People ask me where I'm from all the time. Usually, I'll ask what they mean, but if they press the issue I have to delve deeper:

"I'm from the United States."

"If I answered you, would that mean anything to you?"

"California."

"Near San Francisco. (well, actually a few hours away)"

"Santa Cruz."

"Actually, a suburb about 20 minutes away from Santa Cruz. According to the post office, it's in Watsonville, but according to itself it's named La Selva Beach."

Generally people have heard of San Francisco, but having heard of Santa Cruz is rare and obviously no one has ever heard of La Selva Beach unless they actually live there themselves.

It's always mystifying to me why people ask this question which is (a) incredibly awkward to answer, and (b) completely meaningless to them no matter how I choose to answer it. So virtually 100% of the time I'll answer "near San Francisco" (not a lie, but not particularly informative) or "Santa Cruz" (much more accurate, but also a lie).

If they ask me where my hometown is, I have to probe even further: The place where I was born? The first place I can remember? The place where I went to elementary school? The place where I went to middle school, high school, and college? And when I try to find out what they mean by the question, far and away the most common response is to be annoyed that I found their question confusing (never mind that they don't have an answer when I ask what they meant... apparently I should have just made something up).

So I can understand why people lie, even though I hate doing it. The social pressure here is enormous, and over a completely meaningless question.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#77

Post by ZenPro »

rasz_pl wrote: post #45
ZenPro wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone who has not actually served in a role with training (like that which you describe) you are remarkably astute about the realities of catching liars. It takes considerable planning and man hours to uncover a truth from an individual intent to keep it hidden, often involving stress, deprivation of some sort and considerable psychological manipulation. Not even necessarily a lie, simply a truth they are obfus…

and in case of Police the one sure methond to beating all of the above is "I want my lawyer NOW".

Not if you are being held on charges related to terrorism it won't.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#78

Post by ZenPro »

trhway wrote: post #42
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that if you interrogated me about last night and I wasn't attempting to lie to you that I would still fail this test. I'm addle-brained, I don't get enough sleep, and I honestly don't remember if I got my daughter chocolate milk before or after diddling around on the computer. I might very well remember events when asked to repeat them in reverse order that I did not remember the first time through, leave d…

>I would still fail this test. that is the point. If MI (or any other government force agency) got their paws on you, then you're guilty, and it is just a matter of routine effort to come up with what you're guilty of. The only choice you have is whether it happens a hard or an easy way... As they say in my old country - "for a given man, he always can be found guilty of something" (original - "byl by chelovek, a vin…

>> Got their paws on you?

The inherent bias and paranoia in your statement is staggering. Although, it's understandable if you come from a country with a particularly brutal and pervasive secret police.

In my country, the intelligence agencies have no powers of arrest and must defer to police enforcement.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#79

Post by ZenPro »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #60
ZenPro wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite - The technique you refer to already exists. It is distinct from reverse chronological. Approaches are numerous and to the layman the differences seem like semantics but they each have a specific use (I went into some detail on another answer above). However, something like "did you forget to call me last night?" is not a great example. The RC technique works for complex scenarios such as an individual lyin…

That works against a remarkably stupid questioner who repeats the same question. More efficiently, so does this: Did you steal it? >> No Did you steal it? >> What makes you think asking the same question again will get a different answer? Did you steal it? (Silence) And in a court, the second question would prompt an objection of "asked and answered" for the same reason. On the other hand, a better questioner would a…

Dunning Kruger in full swing here.

Just because I typed up a quick example (which exactly exists and is used to crack a suspect in certain examples) you have launched into some sort of critique of one written example, of one segment, of one technique of one fictional scenario.

Then proceeded to offer a handful of lines of advice as if you are somehow rewriting the techniques of tactical questioners everywhere.

However, since you offered advice, let me offer you some.

1. We never specified we are in Court. That is not tactical questioning, it is cross examination and techniques exist for that.

2. >> On the other hand, a better questioner would ask questions around the same area and try to find a question they can get a response to.

Actually they absolutely will not do that. They will begin by asking the subject to just walk them through the entire in it's entirety and without interruption.

3. >> Did you see anyone or anything suspicious in the area?

That is a horrible question.

Have you established they were in the area? Do you want confirmation of someone suspicious or something suspicious? Why have you asked a closed question? Have you defined the area? have you defined the timebox you are referring to in the area?

^^

I am being overly harsh but that is what happens when you try to impose your criticism on a tiny aspect of complex science.

Re: How to tell when someone is lying?

#80

Post by ZenPro »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #36
ZenPro wrote: post #15

As a former MI interrogator, this was part of my skillset. For the average layman looking to spot lies within a complex story there is an exceptionally simply method known as reverse chronological testing It works best for people you know are purposefully lying and you need a hook or a fallacy for proof. 1. Ask the person to recount their version of events. >> Oh so you went out with the girls at 7pm, then what happe…

I suspect that if you interrogated me about last night and I wasn't attempting to lie to you that I would still fail this test. I'm addle-brained, I don't get enough sleep, and I honestly don't remember if I got my daughter chocolate milk before or after diddling around on the computer. I might very well remember events when asked to repeat them in reverse order that I did not remember the first time through, leave d…

The test is not in isolation.

People seem to be imagining an interrogator walks in, opens his notes, asks for a reverse version of events and says

Aha, you originally said you left the house at 7, but in you reverse statement you indicate it was 7.30, case closed. This guy is done.

The reverse technique, one of dozens is used to test accuracy and clarity when required to do so with brevity.

In my example I imagined a wife being questioned by a husband as he suspects an affair.

Most people, when put under pressure and are lying will fail the RC test spectacularly.

The majority of truth tellers may clarify aspects in their mind but they will by and large get all of the details correct.

Either way, the test is not in a vacuum.

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