It's Different for Girls • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Different for Girls

#91

Post by Mz » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #88

aasarava wrote: post #30

She makes a really good point about pausing to evaluate the intent behind the words -- and even using the opportunity to educate -- rather than always assuming the worst. But did anyone else feel that Brad Feld was very, very lucky that it was Heidi Roizen in the room and not someone less forgiving when he said, "well if you need a dick to hold you can borrow mine anytime"? What Brad did in that one comment was under…

“This is bullshit. Each one of us is just sitting here with his dick in his hand asking for more money without truly justifying it.” Jason looked nervously at me, wondering how I was going to react. “This is making me very uncomfortable,” I said. “Because I don’t even have a dick to hold.” Without skipping a beat, Brad replied “well if you need a dick to hold you can borrow mine anytime.” What I think Brad did in tha…

My thoughts about someone on HN getting called out for "sexist language" that I put on my blog instead of mixing it up here, thus probably almost no one has seen it:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/grow-set.htm...

Have an upvote.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#92

Post by nmcfarl » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

rafekett wrote: post #7

AngusMcQuarrie wrote: post #4

Speaking as a privileged cis straight white male under 40 here, can we at least as a community agree to roast assholes who sexually harass our female compatriots alive? If I ever caught someone I know pulling shit like that, I would make it my personal mission to wreck their reputation and end their career. I realize that's not going to level the playing field completely, but I cannot believe stories like this still…

i'm incredibly reluctant to post in threads like this, but I think this attitude is actually hurting diversity in the industry: excessive "chivalry" by males gives more of an illusion of preferential treatment when women stand up to discrimination, which is just more fuel for the gender war fire. women need our support, not our defense. it's fine to be outraged, but your response should not be to go on the offensive.

Maybe. But from my perspective when people are actively destroying communities, companies, or other groups I’m a member of, I tend to take action. And I’d be very disinclined to just skip on action because it could be seen as defending a woman.

However it should be said that so many of these things are dependent on the people involved. I’ve never been accused of/(praised for) acting chivalrous in nearly 40 years on the planet. I suspect I can get away with things that people who open car doors can’t.

However I bet those people have plenty of tools at their disposal to make it clear that they aren’t defending anyone - but rather attacking poor behavior. I say they should act and use those tools, rather than not acting.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#93

Post by mhurron » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

taiki wrote: post #47

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

I really REALLY hope that no one is ignorant to the fact that tricking people to touching their penis is wrong. I'm REALLY really REALLY hoping.

Knowing something is wrong doesn't mean anything when you think you have the power to overcome any consequences.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#94

Post by protomyth » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

"Again, not criminal behavior. I suffered a few unwelcome gropes at late-night Comdex parties and the like, but never felt like I was in danger and I was always able to walk away unharmed."

An unwelcome grope is criminal behavior.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#95

Post by yypark » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

skannamalai wrote: post #17

Swizec wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

Why does privilege mean that white, male, straight, or non-disabled people are not allowed to say "lighten up" or even express an alternative opinion on these topics? Why are their opinions now less because of their skin color or sexuality?

Privilege goes in both directions: It's now become standard to diminish any white male's opinions on matter of diversity or gender or race, because of their identity, and give explicit power to anyone who is not a white male to criticize that group. Some say it's "leveling the playing ground" but it often just turns into a straight-on attack. It is now highly possible for someone in the "most privileged" group to be accused of X -ism and then be publicly attacked by outraged people, often with real job consequences.

By the way, I'm not white, but I don't think that should give my argument any more or less power. The post-modernist focus on identity politics and who is making the argument gives another channel for an ad hominem attack merely phrased in other words.

Edit: I can't reply anymore, but there seems to be a spectrum of offensiveness - and "lighten up" means moving the bar of acceptability in one direction, when people disagree about crass or potentially offensive humor - though of course the bar is different in a professional setting. In general I try to be respectful and conscious of potentially offensive things in a work-place. But among my friends (or among co-workers who have become friends), or at a comedy club, I'd imagine we develop a different threshold of offensiveness and be more open to crass humor. That's the "breaking the ice" effect Roizen mentions in her last example

Re: It's Different for Girls

#96

Post by abracar » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

jdp23 wrote: post #84

abracar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That some of us don't find these resources that useful or relevant?

Thanks for the response. If you don't find the resources useful or relevant, it seems to me that it would be better to reply with your reasoning and links to other resources. Or are you using "downvote" to mean "I disagree"?

I can't downvote yet so I'm not one of those who did - I was trying to give an explanation. I don't know the exact rules for downvoting but I assume some use it to say " not helpful".

Re: It's Different for Girls

#97

Post by TodPunk » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:32 PM UTC

I like this article specifically because it is the only APPROPRIATE level of "women have it different" I've ever seen (I don't read a lot on the topic, to be fair). It doesn't detract from men (or even compare to them), it doesn't say how it must be if you are a woman, it's just saying "there's things here, they happen, it should be something we're aware of and probably keep in mind." That level headed attitude is the right thing to engender and bring to the discussion.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#98

Post by aasarava » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:34 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #66

aasarava wrote: post #30

She makes a really good point about pausing to evaluate the intent behind the words -- and even using the opportunity to educate -- rather than always assuming the worst. But did anyone else feel that Brad Feld was very, very lucky that it was Heidi Roizen in the room and not someone less forgiving when he said, "well if you need a dick to hold you can borrow mine anytime"? What Brad did in that one comment was under…

There's some subtle things going on in that anecdote that are easy to miss. The meeting they were in was a very stressful one, in a very stressful era. The person who looked nervously at her to see her response was new to the group. Guessing based on his concern, he hadn't yet been "initiated" into a more casual relationship with the others in the room. He was still on a somewhat formal ground. The person who made th…

You're absolutely right that there is a lot of nuance in that particular situation, and you did a good job of breaking it down. But that's my point: Brad was taking a very big risk in thinking that Heidi was on the exact same page. And we know that other people, even trusted friends at times, can read situations very differently than we do. If Heidi was even slightly uncomfortable around Brad or, say, had been groped earlier that day -- things unbeknownst to Brad -- her reaction could have been quite different.

I've been in situations where the relationships between coworkers have been misread. In one case, two women reported a male coworker to HR after he sent out an email that many people, including other women in the group, seemed to think was innocuous.

So I'd hate for someone to read Roizen's post and think that that is the typical response to sexual jokes in the workplace. Even if everyone laughs in the moment, someone may walk away feeling ashamed. More to the point, if you're looking for a way to break the tension, you can probably find a way to do it without making a joke that could potentially make some uncomfortable.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#99

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:34 PM UTC

news_to_me wrote: post #5

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

You're not entirely powerless. There is exactly one person on the planet that you can force to not be an asshole.

Never apologize for anything that is not your fault, and don't cry about the things you have no power to change.

There is no particular reason to wave someone else's war banner. You won't get any trophies or medals for it. So speak for yourself. And if anyone ever tells you to "check your privilege," translate that as "count your blessings," and let them go about their own business.

And I won't say anything more about it, since these sorts of topics tend to attract "downvote for disagreement" moderation.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#100

Post by benihana » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:34 PM UTC

jdp23 wrote: post #64

gfodor wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will b…

I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing. And specifically, which of her points do you disagree with? Are you saying that men don't need to work with each othe…

>I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing.

Sorry, but an anecdotal story from a random anonymous person on Hacker News isn't very convincing. Put another way: I know several women in tech who think Shanley's approach is downright hostile and is not helping in the least and I tend to agree, so you should just disregard what she says.