It's not worth much to speculate about upward or downward price pressure. People made the same arguments when the exchange rate was $5, $25, $50 on up to $1,150, and now back down to $440/BTC. These arguments have zero predictive value. What's interesting to me is the repeating boom-bust pattern that we see as more people learn about cryptocurrencies, and as the Bitcoin protocol holds its own against an onslaught of…
The way to combat this is with arithmetic. Calculate out "if Bitcoin reaches $2000, what would its market cap be? How many people are actually using it? Can it possibly be worth that much per user?" It paints a pretty grim picture for Bitcoin achieving even a 5x boost over the past peak, at least for years to come.
Bitcoin Price Pressure
131–140 of 191 posts
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
By providing you an alternative store of value that isn't controlled by a handful of people in government. Look at Zimbabwe Dollars or the Weimar Republic. There's no reason that can't happen in any other country and Bitcoin provides an alternative to government issued currencies or any other currency. Edit: downvote for ...?
There's no reason that can't happen elsewhere, but there are a lot of reasons that it doesn't . Hyperinflation is actually a pretty rare event, which is why we keep seeing the same two examples over and over - and stated as if they had come out of the blue in what seemed to be a well-functioning economy, rather than being the result of extreme political conditions. Ironically enough, the old Deutschmark is still trad…
http://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2013/05/disowned-currency-odd-c...
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#133> Anecdotally, I hear from merchants who start taking bitcoin that after an initial spike they see almost no volume. To me, this is one of the biggest problems with adoption--bitcoin doesn't offer much benefit to the typical consumer for mundane transactions. I'm about to buy a coffee machine on Overstock.com. There's no practical reason that bitcoins are better than what I'm going to do which is put it on my masterc…
It doesn't benefit consumers for any transaction. Unless you consider the deed itself to be a benefit, outweighing all the negative. I don't. As a consumer, I don't like getting fucked by the spread on exchange rates on the buy AND sell sides when I try to pay in bitcoin. Want to buy some bitcoin? Unless you're doing it face-to-face you're going to get jacked a few percent. Want to spend them? Unless it's at a bitcoi…
There is no easy way for me to transfer money to a friend other than handing them cash. You might suggest an awful centralized service like PayPal but there are plenty of problems with them too. What if I want to send money to a friend who lives in another country? Even harder. Bitcoin solves this problem.
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#134It's not worth much to speculate about upward or downward price pressure. People made the same arguments when the exchange rate was $5, $25, $50 on up to $1,150, and now back down to $440/BTC. These arguments have zero predictive value. What's interesting to me is the repeating boom-bust pattern that we see as more people learn about cryptocurrencies, and as the Bitcoin protocol holds its own against an onslaught of…
The way to combat this is with arithmetic. Calculate out "if Bitcoin reaches $2000, what would its market cap be? How many people are actually using it? Can it possibly be worth that much per user?" It paints a pretty grim picture for Bitcoin achieving even a 5x boost over the past peak, at least for years to come.
IMHO this scenario is pretty unlikely, but it shows the difficulty of doing fundamental analysis on currencies. Currencies are based entirely on confidence; they are, by design, intrinsically worthless. (Gresham's Law dictates that any currencies with intrinsic value tend to get driven out of circulation and cease to become usable currencies.) So the only facts that matter when evaluating them are the attitudes of the population towards them. This is why ForEx speculation is usually likened towards gambling; it's pretty much impossible to make a sane rational analysis of their value.
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
How does Bitcoin provide you any "freedom from financial and fiscal paternalism"?
Most alternatives for storing wealth have many restrictions attached to them when it comes to transferring ownership. Whether you agree with those restrictions or not, Bitcoin does not have them.
Bitcoin hasn't magically changed the laws of the world, it's not freeing anyone from restrictions. If you're using it in a manner to avoid taxes, launder money, fund terrorists or whatever, that's still just as illegal as if you were doing it with a briefcase of cash or gold.
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#136"as far as I can tell, mining is currently unprofitable with any reasonable cost of electricity." I have been mining for 3.5 years. This statement is utterly false. Current mining hardware, such as the KnC Jupiter, can mine at about 500 Ghash/s at less than 600 Watt at the wall. Over a month it mines: 500e9 (hash/sec) * 3600 (sec/hour) * 731 (hour/month) / (2^32 * 8.0e9 (current difficulty)) * 25 (btc/block) * 400 ($…
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#137Warren Buffet said this about gold, but it's still relevant to Bitcoin: >“If you put your money into gold or other non-income- producing assets [read: Bitcoin] that are dependent on what someone else values that in the future, you’re in speculation,” he said. “You’re not into investing....” >To illustrate the point, he asked readers to picture the world’s entire gold stock melded together into a cube 68 feet (21 mete…
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
For many of us, Bitcoin represents far more than an opportunity to gain or lose money. For us, the freedom from financial and fiscal paternalism is worth the risk.
How does Bitcoin provide you any "freedom from financial and fiscal paternalism"?
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#139>This doesn’t mean bitcoin is doomed. It just means that for it to succeed, we’ll need significant external buy pressure. As I wrote awhile ago, I think the key thing we need for this is people actually using bitcoin for transactions instead of speculation (and merchants willing to hold bitcoin balances). [3] Unfortunately, transaction volume still appears to be trending down. Let's look at this. Yes, one easy way in…
Where does the base assumption that it has to take over in a decade come from? If you give it a century then its starting to look much less inflationary than holding USD. You could play a spreadsheet game of finding a length of time to take over such that its always just a little more stable, just a little stronger, than the USD. Finally another base assumption is that "being a major player" is the only success condi…
For this to happen, for the reasons I mentioned it would have to inflate at between 0-10% per year. If we go with the ultimate limit of 21 million bitcoins, this means that the price has to move down over time.
That cap is at $5.6 billion. If we assume no mining and a 6% inflation, that would have to move down $5.6, $5.26, $4.94, $4.65, $4.37, $4.10, $3.86 over seven years (in real terms). That is just a very low market cap for an Internet currency.
And if it's NOT an internet currency?
Then what keeps anyone tied in to bitcoin? Gold at least has the lock-in of millennia of world-wide acceptance, as well as an absolute scarcity in the sense that no other element has quite the same characteristics, including verifiability. Further, Gold has significant costs to move and exchange (including transportation, theft prevention, insurance, further verifiability, and so on.) So even if someone thought Gold was on the decline, it is not nearly so simple to move to something different.
Bitcoin has nothing that makes it unique on the Internet - except adoption. So if it is NOT getting adopted, anyone can move away very easily. If it IS getting adopted, deflation (scarcity of its supply) is a natural check to that, and people will stop adopting it for the purposes listed.
You say I claim "being a major player is the only success condition". Not exactly, though that is the situation I analyzed. Why?
Because on the Internet, you can't normally play second fiddle to someone's leading technology. There is first fiddle (violin) followed by fourth viola.
If people don't find bitcoin the most useful Internet currency, they can liquidate their holdings in it in 10 minutes * the number of confirmations they'd like. That's it. If they want, they can never use bitcoin again and not lose out on anything.
Coupled with the natural mechanism keeping it from reaching large adoption as a leading currency, this is a dangerous formula that results in a shallow market driven by speculation, based on bitcoin's historical performance and its unique properties. As there is no general acceptance of it as a currency, and very good reasons to think that such general acceptance can never materialize, bitcoin simply is in an extremely precarious situation.
(Finally a small quibble. I actually didn't compare with the U.S. economy, whose GDP is $16.8 trillion in a year. In terms of wealth, "The financial position of the United States as of Q4 2012 included ... a total of $91.72 trillion" [1]. That is net worth, obviously some entities will have both debts and assets, all of which is of some value to someone. So I really was talking about a very small portion of the economy, just the active money supply and nothing else. 7 trillion barely is enough to denominate just 5 months of GDP in just the United States alone, and is comparable to the market cap of all gold ever mined - which sees fairly low usage as a currency. If we imagine that the whole worldwide Internet is using some currency, it is quite a reasonable number on its market cap, in my opinion.)
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_Unite... lead
Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure
#140> And even if bitcoin itself fails, I think the blockchain will be one of key technical innovations of this time period. A blockchain is only useful if it is heavily secured by hashing power. This is only the case if there is significant mining equipment devoted to validating blocks. That in turn only happens if there is a reward for validating a block. Long story short, it's currently very difficult to use a secure…
Actually Ripple's consensus algorithm can be used for a variety of different applications, the ones you would think to build using Bitcoin's blockchain. Because Ripple solves the double-spending problem without the need of mining [1]. The main thing that Bitcoin adds is of course the democratic distribution of coins based on hashing power. But if you don't intend to use "blockchain technology" as a currency, then Rip…