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Bitcoin Price Pressure

blog.samaltman.com

31–40 of 191 posts

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#31
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you're in Argentina, you can only sell them for Argentine pesos, which aren't a clear winner over bitcoins.

So, we're going to try to stabilize our currency by tying it to every failing currency across the world? If bitcoin gets mainly used as a replacement for hyper-inflationary currencies, then it's never going to be a viable alternative to an even marginally strong currency. Tying all the world's currencies together isn't going to create a stronger currency than, e.g., the dollar or the euro. Thus, those who work in dol…

People judge currencies by utility and future expected value. Developing economies have far more reason to use bitcoin than developed ones, but that shouldn't make it any less attractive. My paycheck is in dollars, but that doesn't mean I have an incentive for dollars to be worth more when compared to bitcoins. I can easily exchange between the two based on my view on their utilities and future expected values.

If Bitcoin is legal, easy, and cheap to use in developed economies, it doesn't matter where it starts being the most useful. It will spread everywhere.

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#32
post #18

> And even if bitcoin itself fails, I think the blockchain will be one of key technical innovations of this time period. A blockchain is only useful if it is heavily secured by hashing power. This is only the case if there is significant mining equipment devoted to validating blocks. That in turn only happens if there is a reward for validating a block. Long story short, it's currently very difficult to use a secure…

With merged-mining[1], any alt-coin can hijack Bitcoin's security via PoW without any additional mining, see, e.g., Namecoin (which is unfortunately defunct for unrelated reasons).

[1] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merg...

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#33
In a moment of some depression, reflecting back on sinking so much money into Bitcoin at close to the peak of its price history, I made this: http://i.imgur.com/f3tIJwK.png

It's important to understand that Bitcoin is dangerous to you, and you need to respect its danger if you decide to buy some. You need to be using a secure cold storage wallet. You need to not trust services like Coinbase to hold onto your coins for you.

Growing up, I'd always heard stories about people who kept cash under their mattress because they didn't trust banks to not lose their money, which made me laugh. Now I get to laugh at myself for trusting anyone but myself to not lose my money.

Usually, when you lose money, you get something in return. Even if it's just an opportunity. A risky investment isn't necessarily a bad thing if it fails, because you may have stood to earn a lot if it turned out well.

The key thing to understand about Bitcoin is that you can lose all your money in the blink of an eye for a multitude of reasons. I've written in detail about why Bitcoin is dangerous to its users: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7521906

Until there are good and convenient solutions to these problems, it's hard to imagine Bitcoin as anything but a vehicle for speculation. And it's a fine one, too. If you feel like gambling, there's nothing like the rush of seeing whether you're about to gain $50 or lose $250 in the next two minutes. And waking up at 3AM to check the price. (Most of the heavy moving seems to happen in the US off-hours, unless a big news story impacts the price.)

The reason I say it's a vehicle for speculation right now is because right now the most sensible course of action for people who are risk-averse yet still want to accept Bitcoin is to immediately convert Bitcoins into dollars. Indeed, that's exactly what Tarsnap does, and probably many other merchants as well.

And about the price: it seems mostly determined by a small group of people (probably fewer than 100) who have a lot of coin and who actively try to move the market in their favor. They've been following a rather simple scheme: dump a lot of money into bitcoin to jump the price up $50 or so, then sit back while everyone else reacts by jumping it up another $50, then sell off your newly-acquired bitcoin. Presto, you've earned some money. Possibly quite a lot of money. I don't know whether that strategy has paid off for the movers, but nonetheless it seems to be what they're doing.

The long-term price is anyone's guess. I'd say the most valuable insight I learned throughout this whole ordeal is that the market isn't logical, or if it is, you aren't going to be privy to the information it's acting on. The most obvious example of this was when people sold off thousands of bitcoins an hour or two before Mt. Gox published their update with bad news. At face value, it seemed to be a clear example of insider trading. When it happened, no one knew why the market suddenly dropped so much; it was as if the market suddenly went insane and lost faith in bitcoin. In reality, it was probably someone with a ton of coins who caught wind that hard times were about to happen.

Bitcoin is an interesting experiment. I like it a lot. I think it has a lot of potential, and that we need to figure out solutions to the fundamental problems like making it easy for people to manage their own wallets without risk of loss or robbery.

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, especially in emerging markets, merchants will eventually hold bitcoin.

I see only three good reasons for a merchant to hold reserve in bitcoin: 1) pay their employees, 2) pay their suppliers, or 3) good old speculation. When you start to see large suppliers get into the market then you'll start to see a decrease in immediate conversions.

In emerging markets, holding bitcoins can be less about speculation and more about preventing one's savings from losing value. It's all relative.

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#35
> Anecdotally, I hear from merchants who start taking bitcoin that after an initial spike they see almost no volume.

To me, this is one of the biggest problems with adoption--bitcoin doesn't offer much benefit to the typical consumer for mundane transactions.

I'm about to buy a coffee machine on Overstock.com. There's no practical reason that bitcoins are better than what I'm going to do which is put it on my mastercard. And there's a lot of reasons that getting my money into bitcoin in the first place is a giant pain in the ass.

Yeah, there are some potential situations that could change this, and if I lived in a country with massive inflation I might feel differently, but as it stands, I don't see any compelling reason to use bitcoin to make purchases.

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#36

Sounds like he's moving the goal post. When did the conversation change from "Bitcoin is going to change everything!" to "Bitcoin itself doesn't matter, it's the blockhain idea that does!"

For quite a long time actually. In fact go back to when bitcoin craze was on it's highest and you will see people pointing out that it's not the currency but the technology that's important.

Bicoin the technology has already changed everything.

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#37

In a moment of some depression, reflecting back on sinking so much money into Bitcoin at close to the peak of its price history, I made this: http://i.imgur.com/f3tIJwK.png It's important to understand that Bitcoin is dangerous to you, and you need to respect its danger if you decide to buy some. You need to be using a secure cold storage wallet. You need to not trust services like Coinbase to hold onto your coins fo…

Can you provide reasons/evidence for why I should not trust Coinbase?

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#38

Mt.Gox is going to liquidate all their bitcoins for the bankruptcy proceedings. So factor that in, and creditors of Mt.Gox (especially bitcoin creditors) will get even less than the value today. I'd say get ready for a big bubble burst.

No they aren't. A plan to buy out the exchange settle the pending fraud lawsuits and divide the remaining Bitcoin among the creditors as well as give them a % stake in the new business was announced a couple days ago. No Mt.Gox Bitcoin is getting liquidated by the bankruptcy court.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-bitcoin-mtgox-s...

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#39
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you're in Argentina, you can only sell them for Argentine pesos, which aren't a clear winner over bitcoins.

So, we're going to try to stabilize our currency by tying it to every failing currency across the world? If bitcoin gets mainly used as a replacement for hyper-inflationary currencies, then it's never going to be a viable alternative to an even marginally strong currency. Tying all the world's currencies together isn't going to create a stronger currency than, e.g., the dollar or the euro. Thus, those who work in dol…

For developing economies with unstable currencies, does Bitcoin add anything to their current currency situation? Many countries, for example, use black market US Dollars for transactions. It's not clear yet if these countries with limited technical infrastructure will see a win of Bitcoin vs. USD cash, at least in the short/medium term.

Sure, BTC might win out of Argentinan Pesos, but it's certainly harder for the average merchant in Buenos Aires to accept and transact using BTC vs. paper USD. The barrier to entry to accepting foreign USD for transactions is 0; for BTC the entry is more difficult (currently).

Re: Bitcoin Price Pressure

#40
Can anyone make the case that Bitcoin has the three primary characteristics of money [1]: medium of exchange, unit of account, and store of value?

Ignoring the blockchain, this is why Bitcoin will fail. Bitcoin as a currency is inherently inflationary because as demand increases (which is the state of a healthy currency), the supply is relatively stationary. Therefore, a drop in Bitcoin value is indicative of a disproportionate drop in demand.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money#Functions

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