YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism • Hacker News Board

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#21

Post by brandnewlow » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 2:01 AM UTC

fallentimes wrote: post #14

dbul wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, these neighborhood things are all over the place: http://southorange.patch.com/

This one has been very successful: http://www.baristanet.com/

Also:

http://westseattleblog.com (pulling in over $10,000/month off caveman simple display ads) http://uptownupdate.com (best neighborhood blog in Chicago, all writers are anonymous, they cover a rough, controversial neighborhood and overlook nothing) http://lakeeffectnews.com (laid off Chicago journo started her own site, bringing along the laid off ad sales person from her last gig)

I could rattle dozens more of these.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#22

Post by jfornear » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 2:59 AM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #17

jfornear wrote: post #10

Aside from crawlers, aggregators, CMSs, etc., I don't see how a small team of programmers without any kind of editorial insight can really do anything innovative for journalism. The real problem lies in the content, not the distribution channels or monetization models. Technical solutions that ignore what readers want won't succeed. Look at Drudge Report for case in point: Drudge Report is one of the most successful…

I think you're looking at the problem wrong. Follow my logic here. National News will not be reported by local agencies in the future. There's just too much web coverage (they might syndicate some national source but they won't cover it). So take that out of the equation. With that gone what is a local news paper supposed to do? To me the answer is "the stuff going on locally" So what I would do would be to build a p…

Sounds like an aggregator/CMS hybrid, a purely technological solution to the problem. EveryBlock does something similar (http://everyblock.com).

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#23

Post by TomOfTTB » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 3:27 AM UTC

jfornear wrote: post #22

TomOfTTB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're looking at the problem wrong. Follow my logic here. National News will not be reported by local agencies in the future. There's just too much web coverage (they might syndicate some national source but they won't cover it). So take that out of the equation. With that gone what is a local news paper supposed to do? To me the answer is "the stuff going on locally" So what I would do would be to build a p…

Sounds like an aggregator/CMS hybrid, a purely technological solution to the problem. EveryBlock does something similar ( http://everyblock.com ).

Well, that's just neat on it's own merits. But I think I got off on a tangent and lost my point. Basically what I was trying to say is technologists shouldn't try to redefine journalism they should be focused on building solutions that will empower the journalists to reinvent their industry in a way that makes sense.

So everyblock.com seems to be a statistical listing of things happening but what I was trying to describe was a system that feeds relevant info to the journalists so they're able to focus on writing articles that add insight to that news (which is really what a news organization is for)

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#24

Post by ojbyrne » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 4:10 AM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #17

jfornear wrote: post #10

Aside from crawlers, aggregators, CMSs, etc., I don't see how a small team of programmers without any kind of editorial insight can really do anything innovative for journalism. The real problem lies in the content, not the distribution channels or monetization models. Technical solutions that ignore what readers want won't succeed. Look at Drudge Report for case in point: Drudge Report is one of the most successful…

I think you're looking at the problem wrong. Follow my logic here. National News will not be reported by local agencies in the future. There's just too much web coverage (they might syndicate some national source but they won't cover it). So take that out of the equation. With that gone what is a local news paper supposed to do? To me the answer is "the stuff going on locally" So what I would do would be to build a p…

Sounds like everyblock.com. Or at least that would be a good foundation.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#25

Post by evgen » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 4:19 AM UTC

alaskamiller wrote: post #15

jfornear wrote: post #10

Aside from crawlers, aggregators, CMSs, etc., I don't see how a small team of programmers without any kind of editorial insight can really do anything innovative for journalism. The real problem lies in the content, not the distribution channels or monetization models. Technical solutions that ignore what readers want won't succeed. Look at Drudge Report for case in point: Drudge Report is one of the most successful…

Here's the issue about this: Newspaper aren't meant to be editorial soapboxes. They, along with journalists, are meant to be just objective and factual. Having an editorial vision is a breach of journalistic integrity. So that said, a successful journalism venture of the future requires a balance of reporters, editors, and writers but anything too opinionated might make you (Fox News) or break you (when you reveal to…

While I admire the principle you are suggesting, the history and current reality of the new distribution business suggests that this "try to be objective" phase was a short-lived experiment that has no future. Newspapers have always been editorial soapboxes, that is how they get attention in a crowded field. Attention leads to readers/subscribers and readers are the product. Now that we have some pretty good neurophysiology data on how people process new information and with most of the current research suggesting that "opinionated" news sources are going to be the winners based on how our brains work I can't see any reason why the current trends are going to change.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#26

Post by Alex3917 » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 5:39 AM UTC

alaskamiller wrote: post #15

jfornear wrote: post #10

Aside from crawlers, aggregators, CMSs, etc., I don't see how a small team of programmers without any kind of editorial insight can really do anything innovative for journalism. The real problem lies in the content, not the distribution channels or monetization models. Technical solutions that ignore what readers want won't succeed. Look at Drudge Report for case in point: Drudge Report is one of the most successful…

Here's the issue about this: Newspaper aren't meant to be editorial soapboxes. They, along with journalists, are meant to be just objective and factual. Having an editorial vision is a breach of journalistic integrity. So that said, a successful journalism venture of the future requires a balance of reporters, editors, and writers but anything too opinionated might make you (Fox News) or break you (when you reveal to…

If you read any newspaper articles written from the turn of the last century they all read like today's op-eds. The idea that journalists shouldn't express their opinions was invented at the same time as the papers became supported by advertisements instead of readers. The only reason journalists use the phrase "journalistic integrity" is to distract you from the fact that this style of writing was invented so as not to offend advertisers, it has nothing to do with being ethical or balanced.

In a world where all the newspapers are owned by the same people who make nuclear weapons and prisons, the surest path to profitability is to support the status quo; the phrase 'journalistic integrity' is just a form of plausible deniability, propaganda to distract you from the truth.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#27

Post by jfornear » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 5:50 AM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #23

jfornear wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like an aggregator/CMS hybrid, a purely technological solution to the problem. EveryBlock does something similar ( http://everyblock.com ).

Well, that's just neat on it's own merits. But I think I got off on a tangent and lost my point. Basically what I was trying to say is technologists shouldn't try to redefine journalism they should be focused on building solutions that will empower the journalists to reinvent their industry in a way that makes sense. So everyblock.com seems to be a statistical listing of things happening but what I was trying to desc…

There is definitely money to be made from empowering journalists. But the underlying problem has to be solved on their end first, and all they need is pen and paper.

We can build things like Wordpress VIP, but ultimately it's up to CNN to provide the content that makes or breaks the final product.

The Internet is the new printing press. Paper is out, and bits are in. I think what PG is asking for is some kind of magical printing press. Changing the way failing newspapers' content is displayed, viewed, organized, ranked, etc. is not going to save them.

Whatever your idea might be in this market, I think it needs to be centered around delivering content that people actually want.

My friend and I applied to YC with a next-gen news aggregator idea (but didn't get accepted). Our idea was to create an individually tailored news feed from users' preferences. Kind of like an RSS feed that is built and filtered for you from the comfort of an easy to use web interface. I think something like this would be the future. I would like a computer to figure out what stories I would want to read (spanning all my interests from every source in the world) and display them on my screen every morning.

I just don't think something technologically (or business model-ly) innovative is going to magically make failing newspapers better reads.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#28

Post by TomOfTTB » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 6:56 AM UTC

jfornear wrote: post #27

TomOfTTB wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's just neat on it's own merits. But I think I got off on a tangent and lost my point. Basically what I was trying to say is technologists shouldn't try to redefine journalism they should be focused on building solutions that will empower the journalists to reinvent their industry in a way that makes sense. So everyblock.com seems to be a statistical listing of things happening but what I was trying to desc…

There is definitely money to be made from empowering journalists. But the underlying problem has to be solved on their end first, and all they need is pen and paper. We can build things like Wordpress VIP, but ultimately it's up to CNN to provide the content that makes or breaks the final product. The Internet is the new printing press. Paper is out, and bits are in. I think what PG is asking for is some kind of magi…

I think you're over estimating a lot of journalists. I know several of them (who work for the 2nd largest paper in the world no-less) who can barely operate Word much less set up a Wordpress account.

Other than that I'd agree with you. It is Journalist's job to do the actual reinventing and they're no where close now. I just don't think they're capable enough to take the current generation of tools and build what they need to do it. Essentially they need "web journalism for dummies" and it needs to be 10 times easier to use than Wordpress.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#29

Post by leecho0 » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 7:39 AM UTC

GavinB wrote: post #18

This is phrased almost as a guessing game, so forensic analysis of RFS 1 is in order. The phrase "you can't have aggregators without content" and suggestion that a writer is needed implies that this is content creation, not aggregation. One way to start from making money is to let users pay to get what they want. Here's one place it could lead: Let readers bid (or paying subscribers vote) on what they want investigat…

I like the idea, but I'm not sure people will necessarily know what they want to read about. Take, for example, a disaster, people would want to know about it as soon as possible. You don't want to wait until someone votes on the topic before writing about it.

So I'd modify your idea a bit -- have many short snippets about rumors/events that quickly introduces a subject, to build interest, and will be free to everyone. Then have followup stories that will be voted upon.

Re: YCRFS 1: The Future of Journalism

#30

Post by ubernostrum » Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 8:18 AM UTC

"Journalism" isn't going to be saved by data mining or algorithms or nice design. It is not going to be saved by "hyperlocal" reporting. It is not going to be saved by per-user customizable topical filters. It is not going to be saved by search systems and RSS feeds for your neighborhood. It is not going to be saved by content federation. It is not going to be saved by mashups. It is not going to be saved by APIs. It is not going to be saved by putting everything behind a paywall.

You want to make money off journalism? Useful content funded by advertising is the one and only answer. If you can't make money from that, you're either not producing useful content, or you're carrying too much unrelated overhead in your company. In either case, find the place where you're not doing as well as you need to, and improve it.

Despite the popular opinion currently prevailing, the current situation in journalism is not some radical, never-before-seen catastrophe. It's good old common-sense economics at work: if you're not producing things people want, or if you're spending too much money to do it, you lose and someone else will take your place.

Find some people advertisers care about. Find out what those people care about. Give them high-quality stories about it, and don't hire any more people or spend any more money than you absolutely have to. Do these things, and you will win.