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The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

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Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#411

Post by neolefty »

dandrews wrote: post #253
untog wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the simple issue of legal liability, though. If you crash into someone, it's your fault and you can be taken to court for it. If a Google driverless car crashes into someone then it's Google's fault. That's an extremely large number of potential crashes and legal challenges. Absent any higher concern, Google has to be very careful about this out of their own self-interest.

Should you step in front of a Googlecar and get hurt, remember before you sue that it bristles with sensors and recording devices, and that it'll all be admissible in court.

Is there precedent in courts for how that kind of data is handled?

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#412

Post by neolefty »

gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

Also in China, and presumably in much of the rest of the world, cars are expensive compared to average income.

Car use would open up to a new class of people who wouldn't need to own it.

Actually, that's already kind of the case -- in China (some parts anyway) it's easy to find a "black taxi" willing to carry your mattress across town when you move. Maybe because labor is cheap in China.

However, I have a hard time seeing automated driving working out in China's traffic. (Maybe I'm just unaware of the sate of the art!)

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#413

Post by shabble »

mikeash wrote: post #206
munificent wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the reason is fear. "If I have a very small egg-car and everyone else has a heavy car, I'll be the one that is killed." That isn't fear, it's entirely rational behavior. This is one of those many cases where a group of people behaving individually in their self-interest results in a situation that's worse for all participants. It would be better for everyone if we moved in aggregate to smaller, lighter cars…

It's not a zero sum game. All else being equal, larger cars for everyone results in more safety for everyone. Imagine two extremes. 1) You smack into another person at 70MPH while you're both in a cardboard box. Don't ask me how you got a cardboard box up to that speed, but you probably do not survive. 2) You manage to get a Maersk E class up to 70MPH and crash it into another Maersk E class. Assuming you're not at t…

> * Don't ask me how you got a cardboard box up to that speed, but you probably do not survive. 2) You manage to get a Maersk E class up to 70MPH and crash it into another Maersk E class*

I'd be more impressed if you got the Maersk up to 70mph, since it's 100k horsepower engines can manage less than half that.

And I suspect the collision would be pretty terrifying, given it would be dumping a kinetic energy load of 81GJ if I did the maths right (70mph ~= 31m/s, Emma Maersk ~= 170kton, E=1/2mv^2), which is somewhere around 20kton of TNT equiv.

The 300+ metre "crumple zone" might save you, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#414

Post by rahimnathwani »

gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

I agree with the sentiment (and you've seen how small and light my scooter is) but I can totally understand why people buy larger/stronger vehicles for safety. Unfortunately, it becomes an arms race: I'd feel perfectly safe in one of those egg cars if _everyone_ had one. As it is, though, I'd be really worried about driving one because I would be more vulnerable than in a traditional car, but much less able to take evasive action to avoid collisions (vs. my scooter).

Having said that, I'm writing this on the bus, which can take me to most places in Beijing if I'm not in a hurry.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#415

Post by rahimnathwani »

neolefty wrote: post #412
gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

Also in China, and presumably in much of the rest of the world, cars are expensive compared to average income. Car use would open up to a new class of people who wouldn't need to own it. Actually, that's already kind of the case -- in China (some parts anyway) it's easy to find a "black taxi" willing to carry your mattress across town when you move. Maybe because labor is cheap in China. However, I have a hard time s…

Beijing also has:

- inexpensive (relative to the West) taxis

- great taxi-hailing apps

- good private hire apps

(and Uber launched a limited service here last week, although I have yet to try it.)

Re: automated driving, the main roads here are pretty wide compared to those in European cities, so perhaps it wouldn't be so bad. I don't know how a computer would deal with a physical confrontation after a minor accident, though.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#416

Post by torrent-of-ions »

ignostic wrote: post #209

Everyone seems really concerned with the edge cases right now. What about insurance and liability? What about when X happens and it's raining? These are (usually pretty minor) technical challenges, and I haven't heard one yet that we won't be able to overcome with today's technology. Under given circumstances the car will be safer than a human or it isn't. The moment it crosses that threshold (for most conditions) th…

> We won't need to waste 4-10%+ of our entire lives staring at the road doing nothing.

No you don't. That's why many people use public transport or combine travelling with exercise (bike). Self driving cars doesn't solve the real problem which is that people have the idea that cars are actually sustainable.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#417

Post by kd0amg »

prawn wrote: post #385
pinaceae wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, but this why ownership as a concept is actually quite nice - i can decide right now to do something with my car. i don't need to plan ahead. i am not dependent on anybody else. i gladly pay for that luxury.

When you travel abroad, does it trouble you that it's not your plane? Eventually, the majority of people won't care. Some will pay a premium to have a dedicated car or service level, but I would happily be rid of mine. The ability to book the type of car I need (van to move something large, ute to deliver dirt/gravel, tiny car to commute, 4WD for a family camping trip) as the default way of thinking can't come soon e…

When you travel abroad, does it trouble you that it's not your plane?

Actually, it is quite a hassle to have to operate on the airline's schedule rather than on my own, not to mention having to make travel arrangements weeks in advance. It's just that owning and operating an airplane myself is too expensive for me. Since moving to Boston, so is owning a car. That said, I am definitely not planning to switch to rental bicycles.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#418

Post by rcxdude »

phaemon wrote: post #406
mattbessey wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed]. I can't find any information to verify this.

Apparently a Microwave typically uses about 1.5W on standby, so that's: 24 * 3600 * 1.5 = 129600 Joules per day So, if it draws about a kW in use, that means that if you use it for less than 130 seconds per day, or just under 2 minutes, you'll actually use more power on standby than on cooking / heating. I think I use my microwave more than 2 mins each day, but there are days I don't use it at all, so I'm not sure ho…

1.5W is a crazy amount of standby power. Not that I don't believe older models may use that much, but there are now regulations and standards for that kind of thing which push that to a much lower power.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#419

Post by chillingeffect »

Schwolop wrote: post #337
fancyketchup wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not clear that it works for multiple independent vehicles, either. We may only have self-driving car, singular. I'm no LIDAR expert, but I do design and build synchronous detectors (think: boxcar/lock-in amplifier/gated counter). Maybe this has been tried and there's some reason it wouldn't work, but I don't see why you couldn't apply a pseudo-random modulation to the LIDAR emitter and then run the received si…

No, snow scatters the emitted light and scarcely any is returned at all. A wall covered in ice looks like an air gap. (I know this because my very expensive 800kg autonomous vehicle almost drove into a lake under my software control due to this effect...)

Aaaah, a domain-knowledge expert, thaaaank god!

Actual information on this topic is sorely lacking....

....While we have you on the line, would you please contribute some more information on LIDAR w/r/t autonomous vehicles?

For example, how well does LIDAR work with rain? fog? How does LIDAR interact with other nearby LIDARs? How much power does a typical system emit? How sensitive is it to jamming? How many frames per second can be acquired? How much computing power is used to re-assemble a scene?

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#420

Post by TeMPOraL »

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #416
ignostic wrote: post #209

Everyone seems really concerned with the edge cases right now. What about insurance and liability? What about when X happens and it's raining? These are (usually pretty minor) technical challenges, and I haven't heard one yet that we won't be able to overcome with today's technology. Under given circumstances the car will be safer than a human or it isn't. The moment it crosses that threshold (for most conditions) th…

> We won't need to waste 4-10%+ of our entire lives staring at the road doing nothing. No you don't. That's why many people use public transport or combine travelling with exercise (bike). Self driving cars doesn't solve the real problem which is that people have the idea that cars are actually sustainable.

Self-driving Teslas charged with nuclear-generated electricity seems very sustainable for me. Make them rented on-demand instead of owned and you have a PRT system, combining the convenience of a car with efficiency of public transport.
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