The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#121

Post by 0x006A » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:19 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #49

0x006A wrote: post #28

Looking forward to see how self-driving cars can handle traffic in a city like Mumbai or Cairo.

Indeed… I just hope that problem is the same as when someone asked them, 15 years ago, how their crawler could handle websites with “tens of thousands of pages” fearing libraries would put their ressources on-line, overburden and halt their effort.

In my experience driving is much more interactive and not so much rule based in those cities. You have to judge other drivers - there aggression and willingness to drive into your lane, there willingness to let you sneak in in front of them.

Taking traffic from all sides into account might be something that works better for self-driving cars. Knowing when its ok to force someone else to slow down might be harder. I don't expect this to be just a question of scaling up. It will require new concepts and models. You might have to choose the country like you can now choose the language for predictive typing on your phone.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#122

Post by iron_ball » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:21 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #106

Zigurd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before we get self-driving cars, autonomous braking should be mandated so that cars and trucks are literally incapable of coming too close to a cyclist.

I'll back that as soon as a system to force bicyclists to abide by traffic laws is required.

As a sometime cyclist, I agree that cyclists should abide by traffic laws. I assume this was downvoted for tone. The premise is undeniable. Bicycles should obey the laws. Greater rule adherence means a more predictable, and thus safer, street.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#123

Post by protomyth » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:25 PM UTC

0x006A wrote: post #28

Looking forward to see how self-driving cars can handle traffic in a city like Mumbai or Cairo.

I'm just waiting for them to test in snow.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#124

Post by mindslight » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:26 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

Don't get your hopes up, that brainwashing is still alive and well with the first word of Google's post being "Jaywalking".

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#125

Post by rthomas6 » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:33 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

I agree with you, but I think I can explain some of the rationale behind wanting big cars. Part of the reason is fear. "If I have a very small egg-car and everyone else has a heavy car, I'll be the one that is killed."

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#126

Post by josephlord » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:35 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #77

josephlord wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist as well as a driver and I give a lot of space to cyclists when overtaking them but I don't see that working too well. When cyclists/pedestrians get used to the system they will start to abuse it and rely on the systems to force the vehicles to avoid them/stop. Also what defines too close? If you stray 1mm inside that zone do the brakes come on hard regardless of other traffic? What happens when the cycl…

Autonomous braking exists for those kinds of events: When a person steps out in front of a car, for example. Yet I don't see people deliberately jumping out in front of cars just to mess with them.

It's not deliberately jumping out to mess with them (although that might be a hijack risk in some regions of the world) but the person in a hurry seeing a street full of uncrashable cars and just running across the road in a much smaller gap than they would normally risk.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#127

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:43 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #114

maxerickson wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fail safe human laws are only useful to license research. For day to day driving, the cars should either be fully autonomous or have the automated systems limited to intervening in dangerous situations (like current brake priming systems and the like). If the driver is able to take (primary) control, they should be required to be in control.

Tricky. There may be situations where the car stops and says "I can't do this" at which point primary control is handed over to the driver. Think about the system being damaged or obstructed, or a protest rally staring in the street up ahead. The driver should be able to take over, maybe after a stop. Given this "stop, your turn" option, IMHO it would be horrible to also deny the driver from taking over during normal…

My thinking about this is based on humans being very bad at handling situations where they don't really need to pay attention. I think if the system is only good enough that an attentive driver/passenger can use it well, then it needs to be made better before it is licensed for everyday use.

The stop to change control thing makes sense to me.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#128

Post by jon-wood » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:46 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #89

seren wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real markets are long haul trucking and small delivery van for the last miles. All in all it is probably a significant portions of job.

I don't understand why subways and trains aren't implementing. The universe of possibilities is so incredibly limited in these situations that it seems like a piece of cake, compared to city driving. "Can you see that the track is clear of obstacles? If not, stop!"

They are, often on a huge scale. The DLR[1] in London is entirely automated (although sometimes the ticket inspector will sit at the front with the backup control panel open, presumably so they can pretend to drive a train), and the Central, Northern, and Jubilee lines also run semi-automated, and I'm pretty sure the bits that aren't automated are due to union lobbying rather than any particular need.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#129

Post by mindslight » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:47 PM UTC

iron_ball wrote: post #122

josefresco wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll back that as soon as a system to force bicyclists to abide by traffic laws is required.

As a sometime cyclist, I agree that cyclists should abide by traffic laws. I assume this was downvoted for tone. The premise is undeniable. Bicycles should obey the laws. Greater rule adherence means a more predictable, and thus safer, street.

Like the law to come to a full and complete stop at every stop sign, including the four ways that blanket every neighborhood? No thank you; cyclists treat stop signs as four-dimensional yields for some damn good reasons.

There's a lot of terrible bike-riders (riding on the left side of the road around a blind corner...), but there are also a lot of terrible laws and signage. Don't delude yourself into believing that strict adherence to rules will solve the world's problems.

Re: The latest chapter for the self-driving car: mastering city street driving

#130

Post by pinaceae » Mon, Apr 28, 2014, 2:56 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #120

In this discussion I very rarely see mentioned how heavy are cars. Since when do we need multi tons machine to move a being that is usually below 100kg from a to b? Here in northern China, many people have very small egg-cars, which are nothing more than an electric bike with a thin shell for the cold, and this is much less likely to kill someone by accident. I think we have been under a very strong brain washing so…

because it is a multi-purpose vehicle. i drive a car to work, single passenger. i drive the car to buy stuff, with my wife, 2 passengers, plus hauling stuff in the trunk. i drive the car to various places on the weekend, wife plus kid plus shit in the trunk.

i bought it to cover multiple transportation scenarios I encounter on a weekly basis. it also has a certain size to protect me in an accident. bumping into something at 30mph needs a certain amount of crumple zone to make it survivable. physics are hard to beat.

and I haven't killed anyone so far with my car - and I've driven on multiple continents, on and offroad.

no lobby needed.