Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

karissamck.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 62 posts

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#51

Post by bphogan »

tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

It's my experience that you should tell the students that the topic is challenging. Not difficult. And if it's easy, there's no point in bringing that up either.

I believe the use of both of these terms comes from inexperience, or as you suggested, the desire to intimidate.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#53

Post by jfarmer »

tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

Having taught ~200 adults to program, a teacher should avoid the "difficult/easy" dichotomy entirely, which is closely related to the "stupid/smart" dichotomy. SQL is "easy" if you come from a job where you've used Excel all the time, but hard if you've never had to think that way.

Much more valuable is giving people the tools to (1) understand why something exists, (2) what problems it was designed to solve, (3) why it is designed the way it is vs. other possible ways, and so on. Everything is "easy" once you've viscerally experienced the problem yourself and spent some time tinkering with possible solutions.

Monads are "hard," for example, not because they're technically complicated. Their definition is not so much abstract as austere, as you point out. Rather, they're hard because the beginner doesn't see how they are an attempt to solve certain problems with side effects in a purely functional language which prioritizes referential transparency.

Both "easy" and "difficult" are dangerous words because the student quietly elevates them to statements about their own intellect. If this "easy" but I can't do it, I am stupid. If this is "difficult" but easy for me, I am smart — smarter than those other students who are having a hard time.

IMO, it's really the fixed mindsets we need to combat, not one particular axis of fixed thinking.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#54

Post by chm »

tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

A thought that keeps me motivated when studying is this:

"Somebody somewhere figured this out. If I sweat it, I can too."

Of course, it won't work all the time[1] but the attitude serves me well I think.

[1]: I will never become a great painter because of: physical capacity, interest and willingness to devote my time to this.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#55

Post by yummyfajitas »

tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

People don't understand monads because they don't write code with monads. Instead, they read abstract tutorials about how a monad is like a burrito full of kittens, get scared, and then don't actually reach the stage of learning by doing.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#56

Post by minikomi »

tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

Usually that's a sign that the person learning doesn't have the right "toolbox" yet.. It requires stepping into their shoes and trying to build up smaller pieces which they can grasp, then allowing them to step through them first semi-guided, and then again on their own. After a while, the student can grasp that this is the way to attack a seemingly "impossible" problem - well, all these pieces I've been learning must fit in here somewhere.. what's the simplest bit I know which puts me at least a step in the right direction?

Learning how to learn is a lifelong thing, and many people simply don't have the chance to be led through in this way to the point where they can do it themselves.

edit: in regards as to what's "the right thing" to say - I'd start with "Well, let's look for something easy first"..

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#57

Post by sirmarksalot »

greghendershott wrote: post #18
mikekij wrote: post #11

The flip side of this is that it may be helpful to tell students "This can be easy for you too, with a little work!" As a high school physics teacher, I had students look at me like I was a genius because I could do inclined plane problems in my head. But in reality, do 50,000 incline plane problems, and you'll probably be cranking them out too! Tell them "This CAN BE easy with some work" and you're doing your studen…

Exactly. If I ever say this, what I mean to be saying is something more positive. More like: "Good news! This is something that's actually simple to fix/do. Even if you find it difficult at first (I sure did), someday you'll look back on this and think it's really easy." Because although programming is something I enjoy, it hasn't necessarily always come easily to me. I'm not a natural. I learned to be good(ish) at i…

"Of course it's hard, you haven't done it before!"

Edit: Only really applies to a very specific kind of situation. Doesn't help if the person has already encountered that type of problem, and had their confidence shattered by a bad teacher or a hostile environment. My sister in law is a math lecturer who often does remedial classes, and she spends a lot of her time trying to teach students not to be afraid of the subject matter.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#58

Post by facepalm »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #31
facepalm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you interpret too much into this question. If you do a proof, at some point you have to say something. Either "it's trivial" or "it's obvious" or "it is known" or whatever. Otherwise, how would you stop expanding the steps of the proof? I also don't think a university course has to hold every students hand. For example if you offer Advanced Calculus or whatever, it is fair to expect students to know that 2+2=…

> I think you interpret too much into this question. If you do a proof, at some point you have to say something. Either "it's trivial" or "it's obvious" or "it is known" or whatever. Otherwise, how would you stop expanding the steps of the proof? Just stop when you've got as deep as you care to go. I don't see the necessity to say anything there. If it is trivial, then it's not going to be challenged because everyone…

"Just stop when you've got as deep as you care to go."

Really, I don't think saying "it's trivial" is such a big ordeal for students. In maths at least, they'll quickly learn to get over it. I think in the beginning I was surprised a couple of times. Then I thought about it, and then after a while I realized it is trivial. It is also a pointer for the students so they can see "I should know this".

As for passing students from first term to second term - I am not sure if I care. Why not let students enter any course they wish?

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#59

Post by judk »

danielweber wrote: post #46
tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

What I've learned with my kids: it depends on the person. Last I heard, the best approach is supposed to be telling kids they got the right answer because they are working hard. Well, I've had that one backfire. "This is too hard!!!!"

Please provide a citation. Yo are misremembering.

Re: Why You Shouldn't Say It's Easy When Teaching

#60

Post by judk »

quadrangle wrote: post #43
tikhonj wrote: post #13

It's funny, because I have completely the opposite view: stop telling people stuff is difficult! If people think what they're about to learn is supposed to be "hard", they're going to give up faster and be intellectually lazy. "Oh, I just can't figure it out because it's hard ." I've found this to be particularly important with things that are fundamentally simple but very abstract. You can teach people quite a bit o…

That's not "opposite" that's the other side of the same coin. Don't say things are hard or easy, just teach them. Saying things are difficult sets up negative expectations, saying things are easy means disappointment when we have unrealistic expectations. I still think it's fine to say that most people seem to find X harder than Y…

What's the opposite of "heads"?
Post reply on HN