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The Bubble Question

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Re: The Bubble Question

#81
post #40

I generally agree with fred that monetary policy is driving valuations. However, I think it's not quite as simple as he describes (although he may be intentionally simplifying for his audience). It's true that financial assets compete with each other for investors. So when the Fed reduces the yield on Treasurys or MBS, the marginal investor will rotate to a riskier asset. This will create a chain reaction that eventu…

>>> investors would rather hold scarce assets such as equities and real estate.

Real Estate is not the investment it once was and homes have yet to recover their initial value since the crash in 2006. I doubt this is something people would be actively investing in like they used to.

Re: The Bubble Question

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a safe bet to dump your green tickets into speculation because, while the speculation may work out, you know for a fact that those tickets are going to depreciate. Green tickets are almost guaranteed to depreciate, but probably very slowly. Speculation can result in very fast and large losses. There is no such thing as a safe bet.

Probably? We see a lot of examples where they depreciate quite quickly, both in American history and worldwide more recently. Look at a JPYUSD chart, or ask a Japanese guy. Whoa Nelly, that's a steep drop from 2012. I agree that there are risks in absolutely everything. What's important is to understand and manage them.

The fact that the yen has fallen against the dollar means that yen are worth less in countries where they use dollars, but not necessarily in places where they use yen. If yen were worth less in Japan that would reflect itself through higher yen denominated prices on stuff in Japan -- it would show up in inflation -- but inflation in Japan is somewhere south of 2%.

Re: The Bubble Question

#83
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Krugman argues that there's too much money chasing too few assets. Combined with low interest rates we have a bidding war for anything that isn't Zynga. Even Greece has seen money pouring in recently because, really, where are you going to put $10B?

> too much money chasing too few assets And why are there too few assets? To put the question another way, why is it that, even though the Fed has given banks $2.8 trillion in quantitative easing, the banks can find nothing better to do with it than to leave it in their accounts at the Fed earning 0.25%? Is there really nothing more productive going on that they can loan money for? My worry is that I don't see any "m…

Be wary of conflating corporate cash with the LP cash backing VC companies. Companies are holding record amounts of cash because (1) it is seen as insurance for financial shock-event; and (2) low interest rates do not penalize them for holding it.

If interest rates were 7%, shareholders would be demanding minimal cash on balance sheets. But with money @ 0.25%, the BOD is telling investors the "option value" is worth the minimal carry cost to the company in terms of FCF and/or NI.

On the other hand, the sources of VC (LP) have excess liquidity they do not want to hold as cash. If they had 7% on cash they would hold some cash as insurance; but with 0.25% (6.75% forgone) the cost of this insurancs is too high. This is exactly opposite dynamic of the corporate case.

So, you see companies hoarding cash and LPs trying to get rid of it. But for VCs and valuations, it is the LP's dynamics (excess liquidity) which are relevant. The corporate cash piles have second-order effects (via M&A), but the central source of liquidity is driven by LPs wanting to be fully invested.

(There is also the issue of spread/total rate which pushes LPs deeper into the risk spectrum to meet threshold returns. This effect drives allocation to equity vs bonds, and equity market liquidity has carry-through for VC exits both at the iPo and m&a level.)

Re: The Bubble Question

#84
post #83
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> too much money chasing too few assets And why are there too few assets? To put the question another way, why is it that, even though the Fed has given banks $2.8 trillion in quantitative easing, the banks can find nothing better to do with it than to leave it in their accounts at the Fed earning 0.25%? Is there really nothing more productive going on that they can loan money for? My worry is that I don't see any "m…

Be wary of conflating corporate cash with the LP cash backing VC companies. Companies are holding record amounts of cash because (1) it is seen as insurance for financial shock-event; and (2) low interest rates do not penalize them for holding it. If interest rates were 7%, shareholders would be demanding minimal cash on balance sheets. But with money @ 0.25%, the BOD is telling investors the "option value" is worth…

> Don't confuse corporate cash with the cash backing VC companies.

Actually my post wasn't talking about either: it was talking about all the reserves the banks are holding at the Fed instead of lending them out. Technically those aren't cash since banks can't just hand them to you with no strings attached; they have to give them to you as a loan.

Corporate cash, OTOH, could be paid out as dividends directly, though you're correct that that's not going to happen with rates where they are now.

Re: The Bubble Question

#85

This is the most honest article that I've seen from a mainstream financial figure about why valuations are so high. ZIRP (zero interest rate policy) means that money is near worthless to financial institutions that can run the carry trade on Treasuries, or other carry trades involving foreign exchange. VCs manage money for those guys, along with pensions and other enormous concentrations of capital. What you want are…

"In order to raise rates, the US would probably have to either confiscate a lot of assets (which would harm its international status as the cleanest dirty shirt), raise taxes, raise retirement ages, implement means testing on medicare + social security, and cut military pensions/VA expenses. There is no real solution that does not involve provoking some sort of major crisis, so it is much easier for everyone to keep the carnival going as long as possible until something snaps internationally. The federal government can't afford even a slight rise in rates without having an immediate cash flow crisis."

They could demand immediate taxes(30 years retroactive) on all those offshore banks that slick corporations and rich boys like to hide money. If the banks hesitate; send in the the Boys. It might be the first honest war we have had in awhile? Oh yea, and immediately default on the Chinese debt. Wow--I sound like my father? I am ashamed of wealthy Americans who skip out on taxes though. They like to blame the poor, but it's the guy's who don't get a regular check who hide money. I remember this Harris dude who bragged about his Caymen Island trips in the 80's.

Re: The Bubble Question

#86
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you offer a good book on that coherently explains US federal monetary policy? You have a good handle on what's going on. I still don't quite understand it.

Paul Volcker shines in secrets of the temple

Seconded. Secrets of the Temple by Greider is pretty accessible (if biased, as they all are).

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Temple-Federal-Reserve-Country...

Also, the EconTalk podcasts are awesome: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/money/

E.g.

- David Laidler on Money (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/09/david_laidler_o.htm...)

- Sumner on Money, Business Cycles, and Monetary Policy (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/03/sumner_on_money_1.h...)

- White on Hayek and Money (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/02/larry_white_on.html)

- etc.

Re: The Bubble Question

#87
post #84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be wary of conflating corporate cash with the LP cash backing VC companies. Companies are holding record amounts of cash because (1) it is seen as insurance for financial shock-event; and (2) low interest rates do not penalize them for holding it. If interest rates were 7%, shareholders would be demanding minimal cash on balance sheets. But with money @ 0.25%, the BOD is telling investors the "option value" is worth…

> Don't confuse corporate cash with the cash backing VC companies. Actually my post wasn't talking about either: it was talking about all the reserves the banks are holding at the Fed instead of lending them out. Technically those aren't cash since banks can't just hand them to you with no strings attached; they have to give them to you as a loan. Corporate cash, OTOH, could be paid out as dividends directly, though…

Banks are hoding cash for the same reason as corporates. The cash is cheaply financed by low-cost debt and it has utility as an insurance-liquidity-pool-of-last resort in the case of a policy reversal by the Fed.

For argument's sake, assume debt is mis-priced right now relative to equity. If you believe that, and you are a bank, what you do is increase ROE through increasing leverage (shor debt markets+long equity). So, if you are a bank you borrow and buy back shares. Or, you borrow and keep shares at a minimum/flat.

On the other side of your ledger, if you are a bank and you believe debt is mis-priced, the last thing you want to be doing is going long credit (to customers). So, what you should expect is increasing debt/equity ratio and flat/decreasing proportion of long-credit/total assets.

The "stingy credit" allegation is perfectly rational if you make the assumption that debt is fundamentally mis-priced as an asset class. That is the essential assuption Wilson is making to explain why money is chasing equity/pe/vc.

The only open issue is whether or not the assumption is correct.

If we look at policy, when regulators ring-fence reserve and increase the reserve level, they are forcing the banks to sell-equity. The reason they are doing this is because--assuming equity is mis-priced--they understand that banks will leverage up. The problem with banks leveraging up increasingly over time is policy hysterisis.

If the fed policy results in increasing bank leverage, the baking system will become increasing more "brittle". This tie the hands of the Fed--when they move to revert policy--they will risk creating a problem due to having added "brittleness" to the financial system.

So, even the fed is acting as if the assumption about debt pricing is true.

That being said, it is a more difficult case to explain from first principles whether or not debt is truly mis-priced as an asset class. But the analysis can be followed as far as I can tell simpley based on the binary assimpyion (yes/no). And one of those assumptinos seems to explain alot, while the other faces a harder time making sense of the data we are seeing.

From your piece:

The hope is that the lower interest rates will encourage people and businesses to take out more loans and thereby start spending again.

What we are seeing is opportunistic borrowing for financial engineering. We are not seeing 1:1 borrowing to spending on operating expenses or PPE. We are seeing borrowing that is being spent on share-buy-backs and/or cash-stockpiles that maked increasing leverage ratios more operationally risk-tolerant. (And it seems this is true for corporates and financials, at least to a first order approximation.)

Re: The Bubble Question

#88
post #32

One interesting thing about the high valuations of tech startups now is where the money is coming from. It's not stock markets. At or near the bottom (or is it top?) of this "bubble" funnel a lot of high valuation investments from "private" money acquisitions & other supposedly smart money, like the recent AirBnB investment. Were $10bn valuations possible without public markets before recently? Does that make us daff…

One of the later episodes of the a16z podcast featured Marc Andreessen and Benedict Evans. They were discussing technology valuations and made some good points. Though I disagreed with their "no bubble" consensus, they were right in mentioning the classic "Russian oil money" and "new players" argument. Previously, most tech investing was done by U.S. venture capitalists. (One of the reasons why non-U.S. start-ups fin…

"just lots of rich people with less money."

My original take on the "bubble" was somewhat in line with this. However, the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to believe that this will "trickle down" in many ways. Fewer investments will lead to fewer jobs. In SV, this could lead to a cooling down (or worse) of the labor market. The established players (Google, Apple, Amazon, etc) will probably pull through alright, but the VC money will thin out. If I was a software engineer and I wanted to hedge my bets, I would probably try get a job at one of the bigger, more stable companies in the next year. If things do cool down, I imagine that programmer jobs and salaries will be the most noticeable side effect.

Of course I could be entirely wrong. It's possible that VC money makes up only a small fraction of the demand for software engineers. After all, almost every industry under the sun is shifting towards (or wants to shift towards) higher levels of automation and efficiency using computers and software.

Re: The Bubble Question

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Volcker shines in secrets of the temple

Seconded. Secrets of the Temple by Greider is pretty accessible (if biased, as they all are). http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Temple-Federal-Reserve-Country... Also, the EconTalk podcasts are awesome: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/money/ E.g. - David Laidler on Money ( http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/09/david_laidler_o.htm... ) - Sumner on Money, Business Cycles, and Monetary Policy ( http://www.econtalk.org/a…

I second the EconTalk podcasts. I've been listening to them for over 5 years. They are hour long interviews on a wide variety of subjects. The host, Russ Roberts, does a great job of letting the guest get his or her point across even when you suspect he disagrees. The tone is polite and non-confrontational. It is more about accurately presenting a position than debating, although there is some point/counter-point.

I cannot exaggerate how much I've learned from EconTalk. Plus, there's even an episode with Paul Graham about ycombinator and startups:

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2009/08/graham_on_start.htm...

Re: The Bubble Question

#90
post #35

>They have flooded the market with cheap money in an attempt to heal the wounds (losses) of the financial crisis and incent business owners to invest and grow their businesses. That has not worked particularly well but it has worked a bit. I would argue that it hasn't worked at all, given all the bad things that are yet to come from it.

"Bad things that are yet to come" aren't a given...

Well, yes they are. The can has been kicked down the road. Few things have actually been repaired. Printing and borrowing money only temporarily solves a current problem, and pushes other problems down the track.
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