TDD is dead. Long live testing.
david.heinemeierhansson.com
TDD is dead. Long live testing.
1–10 of 166 posts
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#2DHH's keynote from the first day of RailsConf, in which he talks a bit about testing and the general perception of writing software as "science", is online here:
Part 1: http://www.justin.tv/confreaks/b/522089408 (starts at 11:00)
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#3Perhaps design by contract is the way forwards? Explicit runtime validation of the flow of data through code at each step in the system.
As a frontend developer, I have been moving towards a greater emphasis on functional & integration testing. We're also using scripter here, a test tool that actually compares screen caps with the actual on-screen state of our applications. So a purely visual approach.
There's a wonderful world of testing tools out there. I can imagine it's incredibly daunting to a newcomer trying to decide which to pick up and run with, especially with so many job specs specifically asking for "TDD", and now with DHH saying this.
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#4I fully agree that TDD has turned into a cargo cult obsession for many developer shops. The benefits of unit tests are usually for the developer, but in over abundance can lead to inflexibility and debt when your system needs to change.
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#5DHH's keynote from the first day of RailsConf, in which he talks a bit about testing and the general perception of writing software as "science", is online here: Part 1: http://www.justin.tv/confreaks/b/522089408 (starts at 11:00) Part 2: http://www.justin.tv/confreaks/b/522101045
Are these videos working for you? I cant get them to start
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#6This post is amazing. I can't stand the TDD zealots who I've worked with in the past. They act as if they aren't even programmers, they are test-framework gurus first and foremost. Product is #1 in my book. Tests are needed but these guys would cowboy around taking weeks to work on a task because they'd use the excuse 'gotta write tests...' This post is a breath of fresh air.
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#7I fully agree that TDD has turned into a cargo cult obsession for many developer shops. The benefits of unit tests are usually for the developer, but in over abundance can lead to inflexibility and debt when your system needs to change.
TDD has turned into a way for devs to 1-up other devs. When testing becomes a discipline of its own with the knowledge of these testing frameworks, something has gone wrong. Tests shouldn't need much more than assert statements, and maybe a little extra.
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#8I agree with the sentiment but, despite the proviso that we should not go anti-TDD, I still think it's too strongly worded.
If you are rapidly prototyping something then writing tests first is a hinderance. But if you have well defined requirements then writing tests first will save you time.
What's best will differ depending on whether you're designing a web app or building an interface to an SAP system or an external gateway. (My guess is that DHH does very little of the well defined interface building type stuff)
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#9>Test-first units leads to an overly complex web of intermediary objects and indirection in order to avoid doing anything that's "slow". Like hitting the database. Or file IO. Or going through the browser to test the whole system. It's given birth to some truly horrendous monstrosities of architecture.
Oh yes - I agree completely with this.
I'm not sure I agree with testing things with Capybara though. How are you sure your backend controller actions are doing what they're supposed to be doing? Sure your browser might render what you need but what if a model attribute is set to false instead of true? How do you account for that using a frontend test suite?
Re: TDD is dead. Long live testing.
#10dhh has spent so much of his career actively leading Rails that it's tough to tell the difference between his personal evolution as a developer and general trends in the industry. I don't think he even attempts to make a distinction in this essay.
I worry about a push away from unit tests. I can't imagine having to refactor a large application with only system-level integration tests to work with, especially in a dynamically-typed language like Ruby. I haven't written a Rails app in a long time though, maybe these days it's easier to just start over than to refactor.
But any bad day for dogma is a good day for the rest of us. Write software using whatever methodology works for you and always question the value of so-called "best-practices".