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Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

nautil.us

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#21
Colleges are attempting to deal with claims of racial bias by watering down their standards. The bias claims are there because disadvantaged groups are well... Disadvantaged. They have a shitty education in primary school that poisons the well for them.

Why should character or "heart" matter? What if you're a smart kid who is a real asshole? Or a dumb kid with a good sales pitch? Or you didn't participate in extra-circular activities for whatever reason? Why should some guy wading through 10,000 applications be making some evaluation and judgement of my character?

They should drop the pretense of some sort of fair selection process and just do a pure lottery. If you can't read and get into Harvard, you'll wash out quickly.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#22

Maybe they should try doing a better job with helping students who have financial problems or mental health issues? That'd be an easy start.

That makes about as much sense as suggesting bar owners should try doing a better job helping drinkers with infertility.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#23

Maybe it isn't quite time for this question to be asked, but I'm damn well sure that the day is soon. Why are students being admitted into undergraduate programs any more? There are no admissions for the Khan Academy, and a huge chunk of undergraduate college education could be done in exactly that format. Donate to have units created very well (and a few different versions just because) copyleft. Pay Universities fo…

I doubt that I would have survived an online education, though I can't say for sure.

I know someone who got most of an undergrad degree online, in a substantive field, by necessity -- she was a teenage mom working a job and caring for an infant in a rural town. Her mom told me the hardest things about online college for her daughter were the loneliness and crushing boredom. It's great that she had that opportunity. I'm glad she's tougher and more focused then I'll ever be.

The atmosphere at a small college is where I was able to keep up with my coursework. It got me out of my hometown. I got over my crippling shyness, and learned to interact with people in a civilized way. Graded assignments "forced" me to do the work.

In my view one thing we still don't know about online education is how many people can actually get through it. We also still don't genearlly know what an "educated person" will consist of, who sat in their parents basement for 4 years staring at a computer screen.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#24

Colleges are attempting to deal with claims of racial bias by watering down their standards. The bias claims are there because disadvantaged groups are well... Disadvantaged. They have a shitty education in primary school that poisons the well for them. Why should character or "heart" matter? What if you're a smart kid who is a real asshole? Or a dumb kid with a good sales pitch? Or you didn't participate in extra-ci…

For elite schools atleast, I don't think it has anything to do with watering down their standards. These schools have the pick of the crop and if 3.3million high school students graduate in the US alone every year, the top 1% of students make up about 33,000 applicants, far more than the 2000 or so Harvard admitted in last year.

The issue really morphs from "How do I select the best students for my school?" to "What sort of arbitrary metrics can I use to filter down this list of already amazing students?" If I had to guess however, I'd say these schools, under the guise of character, are trying to select students that have the highest potential to give back to the university. "Oh this student does part-time acting? Well we will accept her on the chance she becomes the next Natalie Portman. This guy has a best selling app? Better put him on the list of potential Zuckerbergs."

I'm not an admissions officer (not even close), but that would be my best guess on what someone an admissions officer would do faced with the problem of having so many amazing students to fill their undergrad class 10 times over. At some point it no longer makes sense to filter on raw academic ability (see also, Google's "GPA does not matter"), and a purely random lottery would 1.) never actually be a random lottery (thank you alumni) and 2.) may massively favor one group of people (if I have to choose 2000 our of 33,000, and 60% of that 33,000 are asian from a 150,000k+ income family, you run the risk of homogenous class - if you have to ask whats wrong with this, consider this, would you like to work at a job that hired exclusively white men (or whatever race/gender you are)).

Another way to look at it would be this way: if you were given the task to hire a new team of software engineers, and once the resume's came in they all had, 3.9+ college GPAs, Ph.ds in CS, and multiple years of experience on your tech stack of choice, would you just "do a pure lottery" to see who works for your company? Chances are you might end up filtering them on the most circumstantial of metrics (i.e. "This guy was a Yankees fan, I don't think we would get along very well")

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is insane to say standardized tests "punish disadvantaged students and minorities" A test can be written with a bias that favors or punishes any group. I don't think its intentional, as it is quite difficult to create them without these issues. A simple example to show the point: Which of the following is not like the others: A) Chicken B) Moose C) Cow D) Pig E) Dog Many people would answer A: A chicken is a bir…

> When people say a test has a socioeconomic bias, they're saying a question can become easier or harder depending on a student's economic background. That's not their argument. However, actually the issue you mentioned has long been noticed by psychologists / test makers. Experts in SAT / ACT know a lot about these things. Please refer to Differential Item Functioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_item_…

> Experts in SAT / ACT know a lot about these things.

Experts at ACT maybe. But didn't the SAT recently announce it's re-tooling much of its test to address these issues?

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#26

Maybe it isn't quite time for this question to be asked, but I'm damn well sure that the day is soon. Why are students being admitted into undergraduate programs any more? There are no admissions for the Khan Academy, and a huge chunk of undergraduate college education could be done in exactly that format. Donate to have units created very well (and a few different versions just because) copyleft. Pay Universities fo…

While I can understand that for basic stuff, there is no way I would ever attend an online course on some advanced undergraduate topics in physics or mathematics online.

There is a benefit of being in a classroom environment when learning an advanced subject. You have a direct connection to the professor and other students, which is essential for advanced material. Plus you can easily go and talk to them afterwards for more details. I learnt a lot by going to professors office hours which doesn't work online.

Also, what about labs? Every science program I am aware of has a laboratory component. That cannot be done at home. Plus good luck trying to get universities to agree on what labs to do. Each university has different types of researchers who focus on certain areas, which is reflected in the labs selected. My former university, for example, had no particle physics people so any lab related to particle physics would be misplaced. Instead they had a lot of quantum people so the labs were more geared towards that. I know of another university that had a lot of particle physics people and their labs reflected this.

Another thought is research. How would undergraduates get exposed to research in your system?

Thinking about it more, having TA'd first year calculus, you need to be able to interact in real time with students. I think online resources are great and I recommended them to my students, but they cannot replace face to face interaction. This is something online technologies cannot replicate, so I say it is a bad idea to even do it for basic things like calculus, which is very fundamental to the sciences.

Personally, I think it is a noble goal, but unlikely. Instead, I think the universities should integrate online stuff in addition to in classroom lectures.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the university environment. Being surrounded by my peers in the same field really helped. I learnt a lot just by hanging around the various clubs. That absolutely cannot be replicated online.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#27

Maybe it isn't quite time for this question to be asked, but I'm damn well sure that the day is soon. Why are students being admitted into undergraduate programs any more? There are no admissions for the Khan Academy, and a huge chunk of undergraduate college education could be done in exactly that format. Donate to have units created very well (and a few different versions just because) copyleft. Pay Universities fo…

I doubt that I would have survived an online education, though I can't say for sure. I know someone who got most of an undergrad degree online, in a substantive field, by necessity -- she was a teenage mom working a job and caring for an infant in a rural town. Her mom told me the hardest things about online college for her daughter were the loneliness and crushing boredom. It's great that she had that opportunity. I…

Are you implying that online courses are less 'educational'? I ask because you placed educated person in quotes.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people say a test has a socioeconomic bias, they're saying a question can become easier or harder depending on a student's economic background. That's not their argument. However, actually the issue you mentioned has long been noticed by psychologists / test makers. Experts in SAT / ACT know a lot about these things. Please refer to Differential Item Functioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_item_…

> Experts in SAT / ACT know a lot about these things. Experts at ACT maybe. But didn't the SAT recently announce it's re-tooling much of its test to address these issues?

SAT / ACT both have best experts (psychometricians and statisticians). Those are very basic things for them. Can you tell me what is your reference? From what I read, I think SAT is addressing other issues.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#29

Colleges are attempting to deal with claims of racial bias by watering down their standards. The bias claims are there because disadvantaged groups are well... Disadvantaged. They have a shitty education in primary school that poisons the well for them. Why should character or "heart" matter? What if you're a smart kid who is a real asshole? Or a dumb kid with a good sales pitch? Or you didn't participate in extra-ci…

> If you can't read and get into Harvard, you'll wash out quickly.

A college does a disservice to students to admit them when they will wash out.

My experience as a student at Caltech in the 70's was they did a pretty good job with the admissions. They selected for smart & motivated & interested in tech. As a result, living in the dorms full of this kind of people, there was never a dull moment.

I only knew a couple of students who clearly didn't belong there, and they soon left.

Re: Colleges Want Students with Character, But Can’t Measure It

#30

Colleges are attempting to deal with claims of racial bias by watering down their standards. The bias claims are there because disadvantaged groups are well... Disadvantaged. They have a shitty education in primary school that poisons the well for them. Why should character or "heart" matter? What if you're a smart kid who is a real asshole? Or a dumb kid with a good sales pitch? Or you didn't participate in extra-ci…

> If you can't read and get into Harvard, you'll wash out quickly. A college does a disservice to students to admit them when they will wash out. My experience as a student at Caltech in the 70's was they did a pretty good job with the admissions. They selected for smart & motivated & interested in tech. As a result, living in the dorms full of this kind of people, there was never a dull moment. I only knew a couple…

One friend of mine left his sophomore year, as he was doing badly. About 10 years later, he asked if he could come back and try again, and Caltech said sure. He then proceeded to get straight A's and graduate. I asked him if he felt that he did better the second time because he'd gotten smarter. He laughed, and said no, it was just that in his late 20's he was then ready to work.
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