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Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

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Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#41

Post by Mintz »

edw519 wrote: post #9

The reason most people want to program for the web is that they're not smart enough to do anything else. The reason most people want to blog is that they're not smart enough to program for the web.

Yeah, because StackOverflow.com is a shining example of Jeff's ineptitude.

Jeff declares bold, out-there statements probably more than his fair share, but he's sparking beneficial conversations that get people talking (even if it's about how wrong he is). You might think his conclusions are brash and useless, but he's contributing to the programming community more than he's hindering it. Personal putdowns aren't helping anybody, no matter how witty they are.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#42

Post by sgk284 »

gizmo wrote: post #33
wreel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that both remarkably miss the point that the true measure of software is actualized value to the end user. Who cares about platform or depth of technical knowledge? If some PHP hobbyist who knows nothing about mmap(3) delivers a site that works for people then he is a successful programmer. But assertions like "You hope everything doesn't "move to the web"? Wake the hell up! It's already happened!" irk me. Th…

> Who cares about platform or depth of technical knowledge? The programmer does. There are a lot of really smart programmers that just want to work on interesting challenges. And if you're the kind of programmer that enjoys solving difficult problems, you're not going to find many when building web 2.0 apps.

Really, you believe that? The two challenges that immediately come to mind are scaling and data mining, but there are a number of others. The use cases presented by the web have pushed distributed computing further than any other single thing in computing history. The web is just the interface the user interacts with... the stuff that's going on behind the scenes is still really interesting and very challenging. Building a web app requires both sides of the equation, it's not just writing some html.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#43

Post by StrawberryFrog »

stewiecat wrote: post #17
michael_dorfman wrote: post #12

Jeff is completely out to lunch here. "All Programming is Web Programming" only where "All Programming" is short-hand for "all programming that Jeff Atwood comes in direct contact with," and even then it's not really true. Does he really think that the hospitals and banks and oil companies, etc., are run largely off web apps? It's clearly nonsense, and part of me is beginning to suspect that this "Jeff Atwood" person…

Some hospitals are run off of web apps. They're internally hosted and cost $20M/install, but they still run in IE.

And sometimes it's IE6. No, it won't work on other browsers. No, they won't update or re-write the software - it was a nightmare to get developed the first time around.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#44

Post by jacquesm »

wreel wrote: post #15
habitue wrote: post #3

I think I subconsciously had the same opinion as Michael, but reading it out loud makes you consider how dumb the idea really is. Do I think python developers are stupid just because it's easier to program in than C? No of course not. Elitism is rarely justified based on the tools or platforms people use.

I think that both remarkably miss the point that the true measure of software is actualized value to the end user. Who cares about platform or depth of technical knowledge? If some PHP hobbyist who knows nothing about mmap(3) delivers a site that works for people then he is a successful programmer. But assertions like "You hope everything doesn't "move to the web"? Wake the hell up! It's already happened!" irk me. Th…

After seeing what google docs is capable of it is only a matter of time before even things like photoshop will be web oriented.

Just the other day I was looking for a visio replacement, on a hunch I asked here if somebody knew of a web based version of it and I got two viable suggestions. Now, 5 years ago that would have been laughed at with 'that will never happen'. Now it is there.

Give it another 5 years and who knows. Maybe the next iteration of the gimp is going to be a service, not a local program.

I hold absolutely nothing for impossible, I've been wrong too often in the past :)

note to my fanclub: instead of downmodding try to explain why you think this is wrong.

and have a look at this:

http://www.picnik.com/

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#45

Post by StrawberryFrog »

nudded wrote: post #16
seldo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Webapps can never be as powerful as a desktop application You're confusing technology with user interface. The primary difference between web apps and desktop apps in the future will be the idioms they use in their user interfaces. Offline storage and various other HTML 5 APIs mean that there will be nothing a web app can do that a desktop app can't. Web apps might never be as efficient as a desktop app -- compiled…

good point. But say you have a photoshop webapp (with all the features the desktop version has). When you want to apply several filters, you are depending on the capabilities of the server and also on the current stressload of the servers. Things might take a long time to complete or cost too much. With a desktop app, you're in control of your own machine.

good point. But say you have a photoshop webapp (with all the features the desktop version has). When you want to apply several filters, you are depending on the capabilities of the server and also on the current stressload of the servers.

Why? You can push pixels with flash and JavaScript right in the browser. I'm not saying that doing it is right (neither is the article), but you can do it.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#46

Post by jeremymcanally »

Mintz wrote: post #41
edw519 wrote: post #9

The reason most people want to program for the web is that they're not smart enough to do anything else. The reason most people want to blog is that they're not smart enough to program for the web.

Yeah, because StackOverflow.com is a shining example of Jeff's ineptitude. Jeff declares bold, out-there statements probably more than his fair share, but he's sparking beneficial conversations that get people talking (even if it's about how wrong he is). You might think his conclusions are brash and useless, but he's contributing to the programming community more than he's hindering it. Personal putdowns aren't help…

I wholeheartedly disagree, mostly because there are a lot of people that think he's the next Fred Brooks. He's not. Far from it. He's teaching a new generation of developers these stupid axioms that make no sense. I didn't realize this until I had a few of the more nonsense ones parroted back at me during an interview once.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#47

Post by tetha »

habitue wrote: post #3

I think I subconsciously had the same opinion as Michael, but reading it out loud makes you consider how dumb the idea really is. Do I think python developers are stupid just because it's easier to program in than C? No of course not. Elitism is rarely justified based on the tools or platforms people use.

In fact, this is a pretty curious article. Both the quote it reacts to and also the conclusions drawn from it are absolutely wrong (and I do think, this strong wording can be used in this context).

Web programming is difficult in a different way than say, compiler construction or kernel programming. Web programmers have to deal with malicious users, a potentially vulnerable gigantic stack of applications, sessions, databases, communication costs and whatsoever. One might say: Web programming is mad due to integration issues and malicious users.

On the contrary, take compiler construction. Compiler construction is hard, because language design is hard and because mathematical reasoning about programs and program transformations is hard. Generating code for a language is hard, too. Thus, one might say that compiler construction is hard due to mathematical issues and hard with respect to algorithms.

I do not think, I would be able to build a secure, good webapplication anywhere soon, despite having touched and worked with two large, strong complicated compilers. Thus, I think the difficulties are different.

On the other hand, 'all programming is web programming' is just ridiculous. I mean, one can easily drop a gigantic list of things: kernel programming (without kernels, NOTHING works), compiler construction (without compilers, we'd be in stone age), games (c'mon, totally disregarding egoshooters?), media codec implementors (videos, music, ...). None of these directly interface with the web, but all of them are important (at least kernel programmers and compiler constructors are crucial for usual boxes to somehow work). So, not all development is done for the web.

I just wonder when and especially why Atwoods posts go (rapidly) downhill like this.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#48

Post by edw519 »

Mintz wrote: post #41
edw519 wrote: post #9

The reason most people want to program for the web is that they're not smart enough to do anything else. The reason most people want to blog is that they're not smart enough to program for the web.

Yeah, because StackOverflow.com is a shining example of Jeff's ineptitude. Jeff declares bold, out-there statements probably more than his fair share, but he's sparking beneficial conversations that get people talking (even if it's about how wrong he is). You might think his conclusions are brash and useless, but he's contributing to the programming community more than he's hindering it. Personal putdowns aren't help…

Did you read the article?

Then you would know that my "witty comment" was not about Jeff, but about Michael Braude, whose blog Jeff references. Michael also said:

So forgive me for being smarmy and offensive, but I have no interest in being a "web guy".

It wasn't intended as a personal putdown, but a measured response.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#49

Post by wooby »

wreel wrote: post #15
habitue wrote: post #3

I think I subconsciously had the same opinion as Michael, but reading it out loud makes you consider how dumb the idea really is. Do I think python developers are stupid just because it's easier to program in than C? No of course not. Elitism is rarely justified based on the tools or platforms people use.

I think that both remarkably miss the point that the true measure of software is actualized value to the end user. Who cares about platform or depth of technical knowledge? If some PHP hobbyist who knows nothing about mmap(3) delivers a site that works for people then he is a successful programmer. But assertions like "You hope everything doesn't "move to the web"? Wake the hell up! It's already happened!" irk me. Th…

The way I see it, programming for the web is, for simple apps, the easiest way to build anything in any language that provides an interface and does something useful. It's also, in my opinion, the most difficult platform to develop more complex software for.

The statelessness of HTTP, and the long list of requisite skills (JS/HTML/CSS/SQL) needed to build something application-like are pretty serious. And that's before you even get into messaging, caching, and optimization. In the blog post the buffoon spends a paragraph decreeing the nightmares of web development, and the next calling those who want to develop for it "dumb." I'd say the opposite is true.

Alas, there is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum where it's pretty boring for someone who enjoys programming. But I think any technology can get boring when the job becomes more a task of memorizing an API and using it the way you're supposed to than actually hacking. While C is "hard core," doing something in C with X11 is an exercise in rote and memorization.

He goes on about his IDEs and debuggers. What's with the debuggers guy, too dumb to not make mistakes? What's he working with that he's so happy using, Squeak?

So yes - this guy is an idiot. If you're result oriented, the web is a great place to build an app because there are fantastic frameworks to create things quickly that anyone with a browser can use. And if you're hacking oriented, you can write your own framework.

Re: Coding Horror: All Programming is Web Programming

#50

Post by jimbokun »

shin_lao wrote: post #5

I think Jeff's post lacks humility and perspective. Generally you try not to name laws after yourself, but let's say it was some sort of humour. I truly think he should put web programming aside for a while, and realize someone has got to write the operating systems, web servers, middle wares, compilers, tools that make everything possible. If things are simple it's because other people solved the hard problems for h…

"I truly think he should put web programming aside for a while, and realize someone has got to write the operating systems, web servers, middle wares, compilers, tools that make everything possible."

Sometimes on the StackOverflow podcast Joel refers to this whole area of programming as "systems programming," which I think is the correct term. Basically, it is building the things that other programmers use to build applications that normal people use. So, programming where the end user of your work is another programmer.

It would be nice if Joel reminds him of this whole area of programming again in the next podcast. It's clear in their podcasts that Joel has been around the block a few more times, and sometimes needs to fill in the larger perspective that Jeff lacks.

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