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Results of the GitHub Investigation

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161–170 of 514 posts

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#161
post #65

Can anyone tell what exact discrimination Horvath faced? I went through her long interview and I can only read how she "felt" to be in "boys club" as opposed to specific events that can be qualified as discrimination. For example, she says her code was reverted and was apparently blaming that event on her being a women. I can't imagine someone throwing good code away because it was written by a women rather it seems…

You're missing details. I'd list them, but it'd be easier for you to just read her interview again, this time without skimming.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#162
Maybe it's just me, but I don't really think speculating on fights like this from the outside without full and complete information is beneficial, or even sane and rational. Can we just all agree that we don't know the full story here, and that any and all players might be misleading or not telling the whole story publicly? This is an internal issue. The only opinions I am interested in are internal opinions of other github co-workers, and that only if I was interviewing for a position at the company.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#163
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a woman who refuses to date another employee considered an "office-romance?" Retaliation as a result of unwanted advances is considered harassment. sexual harassment definition: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there was an actual romance. I meant that this immature (and shitty) behavior was based in that domain of "romance" (the existence or lack thereof, in this case) and not, from the face of Horvath's description, automatically based on gender-discrimination. From your link: > Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very se…

> I meant that this immature (and shitty) behavior was based in that domain of "romance" (the existence or lack thereof, in this case) and not, from the face of Horvath's description, automatically based on gender-discrimination.

Don't make up soft weasel words to describe it. It's sexual harassment plain and simple. Also, this bit about classifying it as gender-discrimination seems like pointless hair-splitting. Horvath felt wronged by many things, and she probably felt those things would not have happened if she were a man, and I think that's a fair assumption on her part. I'll leave it to the courts to get into the technical classification of precisely if and how she was wronged.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#164
post #148

[deleted]

That Horvath was not interviewed implies to me that the lawyers went down the list of legal markers for her claims and got answers from the principals here. As long as TPW and his wife didn't answer "yes" to any of them, they figured they could be cut loose with no splashback onto GH.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#165
These memos are often more about what isn't said:

> The investigation found no evidence...

This doesn't mean there isn't any evidence--it just means that their internal investigation didn't find any. If read carefully, this statement tells us nothing about the universe of evidence that exists, but only about what GitHub didn't find. A different investigator might come to a completely different conclusion, or find other evidence (this is where the comment about the investigators possibly not contacting key people could become important).

> ...found no evidence to support the claims against Tom and his wife of sexual or gender-based harassment or retaliation

So their internal investigation didn't find sexual or gender-based harassment or retaliation. But did that investigation find other types of harassment or retaliation?

> However, while there may have been no legal wrongdoing

"May have been none" or "there definitely wasn't any"? And then legal wrongdoing vs. just plain wrongdoing? Disclaimers/"wiggle words" everywhere.

> As to the remaining allegations, the investigation found no evidence of gender-based discrimination, harassment, retaliation, or abuse.

Again, we're seeing the term "gender-based" used as a modifier (also done in P-W's response). This makes it appear as if their attorneys primarily want to remove this controversy from the ambit of gender-based discrimination claims.

I'm not saying this memo is worse than any other corporate public statement. But reading carefully, you often find that the statements don't tell you very much, if anything.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does anyone actually think Github has a hostile work environment? There is a difference between misunderstanding and systemic hostility.

I would submit that at least one person thought it was a hostile work environment.

At every company in the world you can find at least one person who hates their job or has problems with their coworkers. I'm not sure they are the person you go to for a fair opinion.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#167
post #58

> The investigation found no evidence to support the claims [...] of a sexist or hostile work environment. So, are they saying that Horvath was lying? I mean, there was a lot of specific stuff she mentioned that seemed inappropriate. I don't want to get into whether the behavior was "sexist" or not, but I think we can all agree that if what she said was true, the work environment was hostile and unprofessional.

So, are they saying that Horvath was lying? Neither party has to be lying. She might honestly believe she was treated in a specific way because of her sex, while others may have treated her in a specific way because of, for instance, her competence. Both may be 100% honest in their assessment of the relationship, yet be completely at odds. The workplace absolutely sounded unprofessional, which often means the entire…

> unprofessional workplaces are generally celebrated in the tech community, often for good reason

Why for good reason? Do you have any specific examples in mind?

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#168
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem for GitHub now is finding a way to attract talent. If your best response to "You have a hostile work environment." is "We don't have a provably illegal hostile work environment." then that doesn't inspire great confidence when evaluating it as a place to work.

But does anyone actually think Github has a hostile work environment? There is a difference between misunderstanding and systemic hostility.

[deleted]

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What an embarrassment if you ask me. Why should he leave if he's been found of no legal wrong-doing by a third party? Because you can do your job badly and be unsuitable to continue in it by exhibiting poor judgement without breaking the law.

You're assuming he did his job badly. All I'm seeing is the investigation showing NO EVIDENCE OF WRONG DOING. You're taking her word over an investigations result.

> You're assuming he did his job badly.

No, I'm not assuming that. I am saying that's exactly what the report of the invstigation plus the actual concrete results suggests that Github determined based on the investigation.

> All I'm seeing is the investigation showing NO EVIDENCE OF WRONG DOING.

The investigation does not show "no evidence of wrong doing", instead, it found "while there may have been no legal wrongdoing, the investigator did find evidence of mistakes and errors of judgment" and that finding is cited as the direct reason for Preston-Werner's resignation.

Re: Results of the GitHub Investigation

#170
post #113

Julie Ann Horvath has posted a bunch of interesting tweets about it starting here https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/458340919721197568

Somehow, I don't think she's doing what is in her best interest right now. The guy has resigned and the tech media is totally on this story right now. Any small _preceived_ misstep and she could end up being labeled another "Adria Richards". Also, the question[1] in her current github background appears to represent a suggestive joke that I would have never guessed she'd be comfortable with. Not saying this is any ki…

All of these tweets I see from her account from the last ~45 minutes or so don't help her case at all.

Taking these types of things public especially before any formal investigation occurs (which kicked off this whole scenario) usually does more harm than good.

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