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The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

economist.com

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Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#21

Post by NAFV_P »

I found an article related to this, [0].

Apparently they dumped stuff in the North Sea as well. The dumping locations that are known of are mostly the deeper parts. The Baltic is 459m at maximum depth while the North stacks a chilling 700m.

I think the dumping locations in the North Sea would be easier to find (The North has been mapped fairly comprehensively due to oil and gas exploration) but harder to deal with (it's tough as hell). The Baltic is smaller and surrounded mostly by land, so I'm guessing the Baltic would be hit harder.

[0] http://www.chemsea.eu/characterization_and_mapping.php

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#22

Post by toyg »

tomelders wrote: post #15

Is there something missing from the article or am I going mad? I don't understand how people came to the rational conclusion that it would be ok to dump thousands of tons of this stuff into the sea. It seems to me that people collectively agreed to create a guaranteed disaster.

Ecological concerns weren't really a thing until the '60s. There was a widespread belief that oceans could "take care" of everything; besides, in 30 years we'd all be flying to some other planet anyway.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#23

Post by toyg »

jmpe wrote: post #18
TeMPOraL wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article about it years ago. According to it, the Allies were supposed to dump those weapons into the ocean, but they didn't care to go so far, so they dropped them into the Baltic instead.

I remember reading somewhere that this practice still exists today. That jets dump their payload in the sea before landing. As I recall it was a landing area in/around Italy during the Iraq conflict. Makes sense if you think about it, takeoff and landing are risky. Anyone care to chime in with some knowledge?

Munitions are expensive, I understand that sort of dumping only happens in distress situations.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#24

Post by whoismua »

danohuiginn wrote: post #13

The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerve gases tabun, sarin, and soman [1]. But nerve gases degrade after a period of a few weeks to a few years. I'm not sure what they degrade into, admittedly, and I doubt it's nice. Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent. Military use is about 1 to…

So my initial feeling is it's not quite as catastrophic as it sounds. Would love to hear from somebody better-informed, though.

If all is spread evenly. But as you said, currents and other factors might cause troubles in a few areas. Maybe is better to disturb them, or break them open and have as much control it much as they can over this issue.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#26

Post by anonymfus »

jmpe wrote: post #18
TeMPOraL wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article about it years ago. According to it, the Allies were supposed to dump those weapons into the ocean, but they didn't care to go so far, so they dropped them into the Baltic instead.

I remember reading somewhere that this practice still exists today. That jets dump their payload in the sea before landing. As I recall it was a landing area in/around Italy during the Iraq conflict. Makes sense if you think about it, takeoff and landing are risky. Anyone care to chime in with some knowledge?

I remember reading how U.S. Navy dropped 4 bombs to Great Barrier Reef.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/oceans/u-s-accidentally-bomb...

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#27

Post by zokier »

danohuiginn wrote: post #13

The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerve gases tabun, sarin, and soman [1]. But nerve gases degrade after a period of a few weeks to a few years. I'm not sure what they degrade into, admittedly, and I doubt it's nice. Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent. Military use is about 1 to…

> Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent

Maybe much less potent in killing instantly (ie in combat use), but what about long-term low-dosage exposure?

> possibly going up the food chain (does that happen?)

Bio-accumulation in general is very real thing, and imho the most worrisome aspect of this situation.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#28

Post by Shivetya »

danohuiginn wrote: post #13

The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerve gases tabun, sarin, and soman [1]. But nerve gases degrade after a period of a few weeks to a few years. I'm not sure what they degrade into, admittedly, and I doubt it's nice. Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent. Military use is about 1 to…

Gulf of Mexico is a big dumping ground too

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-wa...

thirty plus million pounds of assorted weaponary

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#29

Post by eitland »

Recently navy mine hunters set off an old british mine in the sea just outside my office. It wasn't too big, which is interesting because the shock wave was. There are some videos from controlled demolition on the net but the shock wave in the ground just has to be experienced.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#30

Post by zokier »

neverminder wrote: post #10

Some more detailed information: http://www.mir.gdynia.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/BST-NATO...

HELCOM referenced in that article also has relatively good overview of the situation and links to further info:

http://helcom.fi/baltic-sea-trends/hazardous-substances/sea-...

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