There are reasons besides environmental ones to encourage use of biofuels (hopefully made from more than corn). One is that ~10% less oil has to be imported during production shortages. It's not a complete solution, but a minor part of one.
My wife started using E85 fuel her gas mileage went from 22mpg to 17mpg. Even though there was a subsidy on the fuel she ended up having to purchase more. She has since switched back to regular fuel.
Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
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Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#12Why the heck would they state the comparison this way? That just seems unprofessional.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#13Most new cars will be electric in 10 years. Then instead of oil, coal or nuclear (power plants) will be the primary power source and ethanol for automobile fuel will be a minor issue.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wife started using E85 fuel her gas mileage went from 22mpg to 17mpg. Even though there was a subsidy on the fuel she ended up having to purchase more. She has since switched back to regular fuel.
The math is a bit more complex than 10% and why I put the ~ there.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#15The whole corn ethanol thing amazes me. How they can throw $30bn a year into a program than makes the environment worse is surprising. I realise the recipients of the cash they pay a proportion back to the politicians to keep the thing going. But really - a $300bn or so cost over the life plus producing hunger in poor countries by burning the food? I'm surprised the political system is actually quite that bad. On the…
The problem is that our crops need to be rotated. Corn seems to be the only crop that fills the gaps that is also compatible with the equipment we use to grow other grains. The market doesn't give us incentive to shell out millions more for equipment to grow crops that are a radical departure from what we're already growing (grains and oilseeds for human and animal consumption).
It's far from perfect and is really a stopgap measure, but I'm not sure what the alternative to growing corn is. That is the problem that needs to be solved. It's not simply a matter of no ethanol = no corn grown. The corn is going onto the market regardless. At least ethanol can recapture some of that energy.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#16How did these laws pass (besides lobbying from people growing corn)? I wasn't following too closely at the time.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#17The whole corn ethanol thing amazes me. How they can throw $30bn a year into a program than makes the environment worse is surprising. I realise the recipients of the cash they pay a proportion back to the politicians to keep the thing going. But really - a $300bn or so cost over the life plus producing hunger in poor countries by burning the food? I'm surprised the political system is actually quite that bad. On the…
As someone who grows corn (in a country where the crop is not subsidized, I might add), the way I see it is that we're going to grow the corn anyway, so turning it into fuel is better than letting it rot away as was happening before the ethanol program was put into effect. The problem is that our crops need to be rotated. Corn seems to be the only crop that fills the gaps that is also compatible with the equipment we…
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who grows corn (in a country where the crop is not subsidized, I might add), the way I see it is that we're going to grow the corn anyway, so turning it into fuel is better than letting it rot away as was happening before the ethanol program was put into effect. The problem is that our crops need to be rotated. Corn seems to be the only crop that fills the gaps that is also compatible with the equipment we…
If it's really the case that this corn would be produced anyway, then why do we need subsidies?
As to why corn continues to receive the funding it does even when ethanol has created a use for the crop? That just seems like poor policy making. I don't think the subsides are necessary at all.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#19Most new cars will be electric in 10 years. Then instead of oil, coal or nuclear (power plants) will be the primary power source and ethanol for automobile fuel will be a minor issue.
I agree with you, but battery technology has some pretty serious problems for cars that can't be ignored. How do you deal with the replacement cost and lemon risk (battery leasing and warranties). For me, cars are for road trips. How is that usage addressed (open question, aside from putting superchargers everywhere usable for all electric cars). How do you deal with the power grid costs? Power mains aren't build to…
>> for me, cars are for road trips...
It's probable that many people have taken a road-trip holiday at some point in their lives. Some percentage of people do it regularly.
However anecdotally I would suggest most people have not. Outside the US conditions for the road-trip holiday are not as prevalent. In high-density Europe for instance there are easier ways to travel (train for example). In Asia "most" people don't own a car and driving for fun is almost unheard of.
The perfect conditions for a road-trip exist in large countries with lots of open spaces, good roads, good places to stay interesting places to get to and so on. USA, Australia, South Africa and so on.
A motoring holiday in the UK is brilliant, but the short distances would work fine with simple recharge points. It's hard to drive for 4 days solid in the UK without just going around in circles.
Of course the idea of the road trip is more fun than the road trip itself, and we end up doing a trip maybe once every few years. I use my car every day to commute.
It's the idea that I could do a road trip that seems to be the logic against electric, but in practice I don't actually do one all that often. (some people do, but they're a tiny minority)
Heres my point. Do the math. Simply hire a petrol car when you want to do a road-trip. For most people that will be never, for others it might be every few years - for a tiny fraction it will be often. The tiny fraction can continue to drive petrol. The price of oil isn't coming down, so that will be more and more expensive.
On the up side every road-tripper should lobby for electric cars all day long. Using petrol for commuting is a terrible waste, and when it runs out its the road tripper who will be hurt.
Frankly electric cars today have more than enough range for daily use for 360+ days in the year. As the price of oil rises over the next 10 years the economics for electric make a lot more sense.
Re: Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use
#20In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage (AgMRC). Why the heck would they state the comparison this way? That just seems unprofessional.
The raw date is here (see table 5):
http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/us-bioenergy-statistic...