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The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

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Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#21

Post by tokenadult »

shanev wrote: post #13

This is not surprising to me at all. Pathogenic bacteria linked to diseases such as Crohn's and IBS are only pathogenic if we get them later in life. When we get these bacteria in childhood, before the age of 7, they grow symbiotically with us and help ward off disease. Check out the book An Epidemic of Absence by Moises Valesquez-Manoff [1] if you guys want to learn more about this stuff. It's a fascinating account…

I would ask my friends here on Hacker News to be cautious about taking the statements in that book at face value without a lot of careful follow-up.[1] And I write that, with chagrin, as a participant here who previously submitted an opinion piece by the author to Hacker News, where it reached the front page and sparked a lot of discussion. The claims in the book are very far from settled science, and many of the anecdotes have not been independently verified or replicated.

[1] http://www.emilywillinghamphd.com/2012/08/autism-immunity-in...

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#22

Post by Mz »

vacri wrote: post #19
Mz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am not looking for confirmation bias. I am wondering about something complex that we don't seem to have good language for -- or perhaps that I don't personally have good language for. I have spent a lot of years reversing symptoms of my genetic disorder as well as reversing issues in my special needs sons. Altering my diet is a very big part of that. Humans have been around a long time. Some of the issues my so…

I wonder a lot at how much our modern "ills" are really a product of our modern lives This is why I caution you against confirmation bias. The modern life also allows plenty of people who weren't previously viable to achieve adulthood. I'm not talking about Spartan exposure of sick infants (which is an outlier), but that people with sensitive constitutions were more easily taken young by disease in the first place. T…

I am quite well aware of that, in part because I and my oldest son are both individuals who could have easily died quite young without ...quite a lot of things modern peoples take for granted. I don't see how that rebuts any of my questions. Wondering about -- call it "side effects" of modern life -- in no way dismisses the benefits we do have.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#24

Post by VeejayRampay »

A somewhat related and fascinating read is Dr Daniel Lieberman's "The Story of the Human Body: Evolution, Health, and Disease". He develops the concept of mismatch diseases and goes into a lot of details about evolution and diets across different eras and cultures (there's a part in the book dedicated to hunter-gatherers IIRC).

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#25

Post by Mz »

Steuard wrote: post #11
Mz wrote: post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

I don't think it's fair to say that "modern diets are the problem ". The availability of modern diets is, after all, largely responsible for modern civilization (which was enabled by agriculture). But I think it's fair to say that the many benefits of modern diets are accompanied by some serious negative side effects, and that the human microbiome has not yet had enough time to evolve into an optimal state for coping…

"I don't think it's fair to say that "modern diets are the problem"."

Yeah, see, I didn't say that. You edited that to mean something completely different from what I said/meant. My sentence started with "perhaps", had no italics and I went on to ask how that could be tested. So I think this is a not great comment. It feels almost slanderous to me.

But I think it's fair to say that the many benefits of modern diets are accompanied by some serious negative side effects, and that the human microbiome has not yet had enough time to evolve into an optimal state for coping with them.

That's part of my assumption. But, also, it seems to me that the modern diet has chemical impacts that are pretty well-established as promoting disease. Not that we have to eat crap, but a lot of us do, in fact, live on rather crappy food -- microwave meals, food "products", etc. I think it's complicated and that the impact of food chemistry is not well studied or taken all that seriously. People who think relatively small changes may have big impacts tend to dismissed as quacks.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#26

Post by bmm6o »

alsocasey wrote: post #18
Mz wrote: post #5

Excerpt: In westerners, Bifidumbacterium is a microbe that many nutrition scientists thought was essential to good gut health, but it is almost completely absent in the foragers. Likewise, high counts of the bacteria Treponema have been linked to maladies like Crohn’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Neither of these diseases exist among the Hadza, but their guts contain abundant Treponema. As someone who has co…

2) What actually causes "disease"? This implies to me that germs per se are not really the explanation. IBS (and Crohn's, which is really just a type of IBD), is an immune disorder characterized by chronic, uncontrolled inflammation. All the disease's symptoms stem from this state, so the specific germs involved may or may not be all that important, the body's reaction to them is. When you get down to it, many diseas…

That's essentially the defining characteristic of a "syndrome". It is predicated on the condition or symptoms and not on the underlying cause, which isn't always known. As knowledge grows, more specific diseases can be removed from the classification.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#27

Post by Florin_Andrei »

jonsen wrote: post #6
manmal wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they say, but I'm sceptical this is really the case. What do bacteria behind strong barriers (stomach acid, small intestine) care about external factors?

Bacteria does not form spontaneously from nothing. You have to get them from your evironment. In fact there is a constant inflow.

And they enter the intestine at both ends.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#28

Post by Florin_Andrei »

manmal wrote: post #4
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be interesting - but, as the article says, the environment where you're living is also important.

That's what they say, but I'm sceptical this is really the case. What do bacteria behind strong barriers (stomach acid, small intestine) care about external factors?

> strong barriers (stomach acid, small intestine)

Just read this fun little page, and you'll re-think your stance on "strong barriers":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysentery

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#29

Post by daemin »

logfromblammo wrote: post #2

I am now curious to see what happens when you switch some of the Hazda group to an Italian diet, and some of the Italians to a Hazdan diet.

I'm sure if you had to survive in a different environment your gut flora and fauna would adapt to the new conditions given enough time. But unless you were forced to adapt with your survival at stake you'd just revert to eating whatever didn't cause you to become ill.

This does remind me of an Anthony Bourdain No Reservations episode where they ate with the bushmen, and they gave Tony the "best" part of the hog - the anus - unwashed, uncooked. If nothing else then eating those parts of animals with all their attached microbes would introduce them to you over time. Tony did get violently ill for a few days after filming the segment.

Re: The Gut Microbes of African Hunter-Gatherers

#30

Post by pistle »

Gut flora-related disease could have also exerted pressure on an insulated population leading to tolerance for elevated levels of bacteria which are observed as being related to unwanted symptoms in other populations.

It takes more than a load of crap to tell the whole story.

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