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Raising a moral child

nytimes.com

151–159 of 159 posts

Re: Raising a moral child

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any problem with studies of child development, and have found some of them quite interesting. The problem comes not from gaining knowledge, but from attempting to apply that knowledge inexpertly. Most humans are not equipped deceive at that level, and a child unconsciously can tell the difference between an authentic reaction and a deliberate one. All humans are mechanisms in the physical sense, certainl…

You're clearly making value judgments when you use words like "manipulate" and "deceive," neither of which occur literally or conceptually in the article. Edit: the article does use the word "tricks", although I would argue as shorthand for technique rather than deceive. Nevertheless to be fair I replaced it above with "manipulate".

I definitely and totally judge the article.

It's exactly the kind of junk I invariably see when a good journalist attempts to write about any kind of science - they try to draw conclusions from the study that the study does not draw, because the conclusions drawn from a real study are never interesting to a normal readership.

The study most likely does not prescribe behaviors or approaches on the parts of parents when raising their children. The study ought to be purely about how individuals react to controlled and described stimuli - the study will draw reasonable conclusions, make appropriate cautions about the mapping between reality and experiment, and be very careful about inferring any real-world implications. I haven't purchased a copy of this particular study, so I can't judge it on its own merits, but it's from a reputable source, and the abstract makes reasonable claims.

Re: Raising a moral child

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is not modern parenting, that's just parenting. Aside from some fringe philosophies (Summerhill for example) I have yet to come across any seriously taken historical example of parenting advice that is not focused on shaping children into something the parent desires, even if that is a very loose mold. Try Emile from Rousseau. In general, what you are describing is the difference between the sciences of pedago…

>pedagogy tries to find the optimal conditions for humans to develop their true self "True self" is not a real thing - it's mystical psychobabble. In reality you are a product of your genetics and experiences, the ratios of which are still contested, however as of now the latter is much easier to influence than the former and as a result is really the only medium we have to work with if we want to influence outcomes.

>>pedagogy tries to find the optimal conditions for humans to develop their true self

>"True self" is not a real thing - it's mystical psychobabble.

Yep you are right, but I don't speak English natively and did not have much time :) A better phrasing probably would have been the true potential of the species, not of an individual. But true potential sounds too elitist... I'll try more verbosely: Mostly since the enlightenment (let's say the second half of the 18th century, one landmark was Emile by Rousseau), most central-european theory of pedagogy has a specific vision of an ideal of a developed human being (or species) to strive for. It's centered around development of practical, cultural and emotional skills, reasoning, the ability to assess the own actions relative to the state and necessities of society as a whole. Something like the living according to the categorical imperative of Kant while not feeling deprived of the own needs.

Re: Raising a moral child

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what works extra- extra- well? Be the kind of person you want your kids to be. Treat them like a decent person treats other decent people and that's the behavior they will learn. Absolutely. And be consistent, that's the one main important result of developmental psychology for parents. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory and grep for Bowlby. > Your kids are way smarter than you think. They…

Authentic actions by a stable individual are inherently consistent. Whereas forced behaviors that are intended to be consistent rarely are.

> Authentic actions by a stable individual are inherently consistent. Whereas forced behaviors that are intended to be consistent rarely are.

I think we mean the same thing, but to be sure: I tried to exclude the following authenticity with my phrasing:

If I am relaxed on a saturday afternoon and my child spills it's cornflakes over the print outs I left on the desk, it's no big deal. Me or both of us clean up the mess and I just print them out again. If the same thing happens on a stressfull thursday evening, I am angered and let that anger out.

In that example I am authentic, but from the view of the child my response to the same action of the child is not consistent. The child has to have reached a certain age to grasp that my anger is mostly about my stress and not about the actions of the kid (specificially the ability to empathize has to be developed).

tl;dr: What I meant with consistency is mostly the parents having a certain amount of affect control. That's probably what you meant with 'a stable individual'.

Re: Raising a moral child

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the objective distinction between each of the following: a skill, a behavior, a habit, a personality characteristic, and a character attribute? Seems to me that all of them, when they describe anything that is objectively meaningful, refer to patterns of action adopted in particular circumstances. The only thing that changes over time seems to be the name applied to the patterns of action that parenting seeks…

While I don't want to get bogged down into details of definitions, I'll take a swing at it: A skill is a capability learned through experience which is wielded with intention. A behavior is simply a way of acting - it could be conscious or unconscious, it could be enforced or intentional. A habit is an unintentional behavior. A personality characteristic and a character attribute are basically the same thing: unconsc…

I think the distinction you are making is illusory in the sense of the discussion -- you cannot influence outward action of the type you describe as skill, behavior, and habit without describing the internal processing you describe as "personality characteristics" and "character attributes", and you cannot observe "personality characteristics" or "character attributes" except as they manifest through skill, behavior, or habit.

Re: Raising a moral child

#155
Haven't read the article as it's probably full of psycho-babble. Just live your life with integrity and the kids will follow. And don't force-feed religion on the poor kids, morals are not from fairy-tales; morals are real. My kids see the value of being moral via me and then these morals are confirmed as they wander thru life.

Re: Raising a moral child

#156
post #150
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would swapping actresses help? The issue is not a quality of the individual person, but of their action - and the relationship between their action and the baby's later response to that person is very thing being tested. BTW: Whatever your intention, calling people "obnoxious", "nit picking", "novices" and "whining" because they question something does not actually raise the level of discourse.

>How would swapping actresses help? Using many actresses would allow the investigators to see if an individual receives a different response compared to the overall group. But it looks like you actually meant say the babies knew the testers felt bad so refused to share, not because the baby had been slighted. I think you need to read more on what the study tested. >BTW: Whatever your intention, calling people "obnoxi…

What did the study test then? (I don't have a subscription to "Psychological Science", so can't read the full text, at least, not from the above link).

From the abstract on the first expt (and from the story linked here on HN), it seems unambiguous. My understanding is: one actress offered then refused the toy (intentional); a second actress offered but accidently dropped the toy (unintentional). Later, the baby treated the two actresses differently.

My thinking was that it would be impossible to control for the effect I described (i.e. the Clever Hans Effect), given the social nature of what they were investigating. You probably already know about Clever Hans and so didn't read the wikipedia article I linked, but it's pretty entertaining/interesting, and addresses the problems of controlling for the effect in some social experiments (EDIT: what I'm referring to is that it says in some social experiments they can't control for it just have to accept the effect may be there).

It would be really cool if they had a clever way of controlling for it (I've come across a few very clever experimental designs in Psych studies), so I was wondering if they did or not, and if so how.

I didn't think the conductors of the experiment were incompetent.

Thanks for rereading my comment.

Re: Raising a moral child

#157
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want my children to be like me, I want them to be better than me. I can try to be what I want them to be (said otherwise: I can try to be what I want myself to be, or what I should be), but acknowledging my fallibility and proactively anticipating flaws in execution in the 'lead be example' strategy seems to be more grounded in reality. (think of it this way: how many athletics coaches tell their athletes 'ju…

Trying to get somebody to live the sort of life you want for them is a potentially harmful mistake. Why not pay attention to one's performance as a parent , and learn from that?

"Trying to get somebody to live the sort of life you want for them is a potentially harmful mistake."

Well yeah obviously, I was talking about the second-order effect of the parenting. Like a control signal being modulated onto the main signal (with the main signal being a child's endogenous drives, interests and character), or one-dimensional Perlin noise, the parenting needs to follow the primary amplitude.

Re: Raising a moral child

#158
Just for the record, J. Philippe Rushton, whom the op-ed draws on as a classic source of this kind of work in psychology, was a white-supremacist race "scientist" who argued, among other things, that black people have narrower hips because they have smaller brains.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a file on him: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/pro...

While that doesn't invalidate all the findings outlined in the op-ed, it's not exactly confidence inspiring either, as this essay persuasively argues: http://africasacountry.com/the-racesciencefiles-the-new-york...

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