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BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

bitundo.com

41–50 of 59 posts

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#41
post #15

This link was also posted to reddit.com/r/bitcoin about an hour ago and was making its way up the front page. Now ... gone. I wonder if it's a scam or it got reported and deleted out of fear of causing a stir or similar.

No fraud or scam. Bitcoin users have acted very aggressively to the idea -- and felt best to censor it. What they seem to not realize, is that double spend attacks were very viable previously (putting conflicting transactions in different part of the network), submitting double-spends directly to pools, finley attack etc. The thing bitundo brings to the table is legitimacy. People can undo a transaction without forek…

You're the guy who created it, aren't you?

Double spends are not currently "very viable", as indicated by the fact that they were not happening and accepting instant payment is the standard. This is objective reality, not something you can argue away. A different world being theoretically possible does not translate into it magically happening with no effort. You are making an effort to change our happy situation for your own profit, in other words, to make Bitcoin less useful over the long run to benefit yourself in the short run. I can't tell if you're motivated by greed or a particularly poorly thought out world view.

Also, why are you claiming this is somehow specific to unconfirmed transactions? Corrupt miners can also rewrite the block chain. If you get paid enough and have enough hash power, why not see if you can overtake the chain head? So don't claim it's somehow specific to unconfirmed transactions. It isn't.

Bitcoin fundamentally assumes that the majority of mining power is "honest", defined to mean following the rules laid down by Satoshi in the core software. You can see this by simply reading the white paper:

"The system is secure as long as honest nodes collectively control more CPU power than any cooperating group of attacker nodes."

(last sentence, first page)

You are attempting to bribe miners to become "dishonest" and "attack the network" in Satoshi's language. If enough people did what you suggest, the system's fundamental assumption would be invalidated and the entire network would break. If merely a small number of people do it, it just makes the system unreliable, untrustworthy and pushes people towards centralised fixes like payment processors that levy higher fees, trusted third parties that prevent double spending, secure hardware, etc. All things that increase Bitcoin's costs and reduce its competitiveness vs regular banking. Doing this doesn't help anyone or prove any point, it just adds sand into an otherwise useful system by increasing transaction costs.

tl;dr you are like a kid kicking down someone's sandcastle on a beach, then saying "they should have been guarding it better, anyone could have done what i did!".

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#42
post #7

Interesting product. It doesn't really look like this is meant to make any money for the developer yet (maybe the plan is to add fees to their mining pool at some point in the future?). I suspect the point is to drive policy so that companies and individuals don't trust transactions with zero confirmations, or at least start checking for double-spend attempts. The standard right now for many companies is to accept ze…

Won't that be a big problem for everyday transactions though, to have to wait 10 mins for a confirmation instead of immediately like swiping a credit card when say you go out to eat or go grocery shopping?

Won't that then hurt the usefulness of bitcoin and adoption rate?

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#43
post #8

I think people should stick to n-of-m checking versus this scheme. When people try to undermine a system, two negative things may happen: 1) The system that is being undermined will be pushed too far and it won't be see as reliable and/or 2) The system that is perpetrating the undermining will get patched out of existence. Both scenarios end poorly for the bitcoin ecosystem. If you want to send a bitcoin but aren't s…

There are no patches for it.

Bitcoin is a system that is woefully misunderstood by many people. It is not a honey badger. It is at heart a system that takes a positive view on humanity. It's a system built on the assumption that the majority of players are honest and stick to the rules. In a world in which most people think long term and don't spend all their time trying to stab each other in the back, this works.

But is humanity really that way? Or does society require a small number of rulers keeping the ruled in line? Every day that Bitcoin works well, the answer shifts towards "no, decentralisation of power can work". And if BitUndo gathers significant hash power, the answer shifts more towards "yes, decentralised solutions can't work if they rely on an honest majority".

If you read the literature, distributed systems very commonly require some kind of honest majority, if only because the definition of "honest" needs to be set by something. There isn't really a way to make Bitcoin work in a world where most other players are colluding against you.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#44
post #26
post #21

Previously, processors and merchants accepting bitcoin payments would wait until a large fraction of bitcoin nodes listed a 0-conf txn as "valid-but-unconfirmed," the so-called memory pool or mempool (because it is a collection of transactions in RAM). This works well, because we empirically know how nodes operate: they accept these valid-but-unconfirmed txns into the blockchain and reject (both discard and fail to r…

> processors and merchants accepting bitcoin payments Citation needed. The existing behavior is very easy to rip off: You write two transactions, the one paying yourself, one paying the merchant. Simultaneously you hand a big miner the first while handing every other node you can reach the second. It's very likely that the first doesn't propagate at all, but you'll have a decent successrate at reversing. Blockchain.i…

Come on Gregory. You don't need to provide citations for reality. Just go and spend some Bitcoins into the economy, then tell me how many sellers required 6 confirmations. I don't remember the last time anyone required me to wait except for exchanges.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#45
post #8

I think people should stick to n-of-m checking versus this scheme. When people try to undermine a system, two negative things may happen: 1) The system that is being undermined will be pushed too far and it won't be see as reliable and/or 2) The system that is perpetrating the undermining will get patched out of existence. Both scenarios end poorly for the bitcoin ecosystem. If you want to send a bitcoin but aren't s…

There are no patches for it. Bitcoin is a system that is woefully misunderstood by many people. It is not a honey badger. It is at heart a system that takes a positive view on humanity. It's a system built on the assumption that the majority of players are honest and stick to the rules. In a world in which most people think long term and don't spend all their time trying to stab each other in the back, this works. Bu…

>But is humanity really that way? Or does society require a small number of rulers keeping the ruled in line?

IMO it depends on the specific ecosystem, and there is no definitive answer for this question. Some systems bring out the worst in people, some don't. However, as bitcoin is a financial system, greed is a major force that it must contend with. As the value of BTC grows, the incentive for bad behavior will grow with the rewards. For that reason, I personally cannot imagine that bitcoin can continue indefinitely without some sort of regulation. I'd love to be wrong about that, however.

It remains to be seen if BitUndo can realize their goal under the current framework. It's quite possible that the costs coupled with the initially low success rate and the desire for miners to protect the value of their holdings might prevent it from ever gaining traction. However, their efforts highlight an attack vector and there may be ways to disincentivize their scheme early on.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No fraud or scam. Bitcoin users have acted very aggressively to the idea -- and felt best to censor it. What they seem to not realize, is that double spend attacks were very viable previously (putting conflicting transactions in different part of the network), submitting double-spends directly to pools, finley attack etc. The thing bitundo brings to the table is legitimacy. People can undo a transaction without forek…

You're the guy who created it, aren't you? Double spends are not currently "very viable", as indicated by the fact that they were not happening and accepting instant payment is the standard. This is objective reality, not something you can argue away. A different world being theoretically possible does not translate into it magically happening with no effort. You are making an effort to change our happy situation for…

That doesn't change the fact the castle isn't secure. This is a wakeup call for anyone relying on 0-confirmations transactions.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No fraud or scam. Bitcoin users have acted very aggressively to the idea -- and felt best to censor it. What they seem to not realize, is that double spend attacks were very viable previously (putting conflicting transactions in different part of the network), submitting double-spends directly to pools, finley attack etc. The thing bitundo brings to the table is legitimacy. People can undo a transaction without forek…

You're the guy who created it, aren't you? Double spends are not currently "very viable", as indicated by the fact that they were not happening and accepting instant payment is the standard. This is objective reality, not something you can argue away. A different world being theoretically possible does not translate into it magically happening with no effort. You are making an effort to change our happy situation for…

To be fair, if comparing Bitcoin to a sandcastle is a fair comparison, then it's better for this to be made obvious to everybody before it reaches critical mass.

Perhaps more importantly, this feature doesn't actually rely on miners being dishonest. There is no rewriting of the blockchain going on. All that is required is that miners are greedy. That is, when two conflicting transactions are in the mempool, it requires that miners prefer the transaction that comes with a higher fee.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the guy who created it, aren't you? Double spends are not currently "very viable", as indicated by the fact that they were not happening and accepting instant payment is the standard. This is objective reality, not something you can argue away. A different world being theoretically possible does not translate into it magically happening with no effort. You are making an effort to change our happy situation for…

To be fair, if comparing Bitcoin to a sandcastle is a fair comparison, then it's better for this to be made obvious to everybody before it reaches critical mass. Perhaps more importantly, this feature doesn't actually rely on miners being dishonest. There is no rewriting of the blockchain going on. All that is required is that miners are greedy. That is, when two conflicting transactions are in the mempool, it requir…

I think people involved with it over the long term have always said that it's a risky experiment that might fail. Bitcoin resembles a sandcastle far more than a honey badger, that's for sure.

"Honesty" is defined to mean "following the rules". The first seen rule is a part of that set. BitUndo isn't attempting to fork the chain today, but they certainly could - it's a simple extension of their model. Double spending for a fee doesn't really care whether a tx is unconfirmed or not, it simply alters the price charged.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the guy who created it, aren't you? Double spends are not currently "very viable", as indicated by the fact that they were not happening and accepting instant payment is the standard. This is objective reality, not something you can argue away. A different world being theoretically possible does not translate into it magically happening with no effort. You are making an effort to change our happy situation for…

That doesn't change the fact the castle isn't secure. This is a wakeup call for anyone relying on 0-confirmations transactions.

Security isn't a binary yes/no thing and double-spending-for-a-fee does not require unconfirmed transactions. Confirmed txns can be replaced too, it just costs more.

Re: BitUndo – Double Spending as a service

#50
I'm not 100% sure I understand why miner would prefer BU pools as opposed to other pools. Is it because the miners receive 100% of the mining fees? (as opposed to having to pay admin fee to the pool manager) BU's income is the fee payed by successful customers.

That means that there should be an equilibrium point between "miners for hire" (that try and target specific transactions) and regular miners.

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