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Raising a moral child

nytimes.com

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Re: Raising a moral child

#71

Post by jostylr »

Father of recent 3 year old. Big believer in modeling. I see other parents tell their kids to clean up, put stuff away, etc. I simply embrace cleaning up and my daughter follows suit quite often.

We also do whatever we can to enable her to participate in what we are doing (sadly computers are a big problem in that regard, much more than say chopping with a knife). Our kid is very well-behaved and cautious (except for tired/hungry breakdowns, of course).

I am also a big believer in the see-what happens school of action. Other parents are always encouraging (yelling at) their kids to share, particularly in support of aggressive children trying to take from their child. We believe in letting children experiment and realize that sharing leads to fun, greediness not so much. We demonstrate the power of choosing not to play others which is really the best way of handling unpleasant people/situations.

But at the heart of it all is simply being, authentically, the kind of person you want your child to be. They are programmed to learn actual behavior from their parents who 1) have been successful enough to reproduce and 2) have a similar genetic makeup meaning their behaviors are likely to be compatible with the kid's abilities.

So be a better person and relax. Oh, and look into Sudbury education for your kids which really teaches them how to be moral in a community.

Re: Raising a moral child

#72

Post by lilsunnybee »

mcv wrote: post #17

Man, I just learned to compliment actions rather than talent, and now I have to do it the other way around. I get why, though. Moral actions are choices. Being smart isn't. If you praise a kid for being smart, he won't be able to choose to be smart. Instead, he'll assume he's smart and won't have to work so hard. I suppose praising an innate tendency to work hard might be more effective.

You just praise the kid personally for displaying values that are healthy and helpful to internalize and base an identity on, while for other behaviors (mostly negative ones), you express disappointment (or some other emotion) about the behavior not the person. Looking at it that way it seems pretty intuitive to me. Try and minimize the amount of therapy the kid's going to need as an adult. It's fine to make occasional mistakes, but if you find yourself constantly wanting to put your kid down or praise them for innate but effortless strengths, maybe you're not being quite fair to them and need to reexamine how you approach the relationship. But for most people (and a lot of good parents already), I'd think that most of these prescriptions are pretty natural and mostly effortless.

Re: Raising a moral child

#73

Post by jawns »

jostylr wrote: post #71

Father of recent 3 year old. Big believer in modeling. I see other parents tell their kids to clean up, put stuff away, etc. I simply embrace cleaning up and my daughter follows suit quite often. We also do whatever we can to enable her to participate in what we are doing (sadly computers are a big problem in that regard, much more than say chopping with a knife). Our kid is very well-behaved and cautious (except for…

From Wikipedia: "At a Sudbury school, students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by direct democracy in which students and staff are equals. Students individually decide what to do with their time, and tend to learn as a by-product of ordinary experience rather than through coursework. There is no predetermined educational syllabus, prescriptive curriculum or standardized instruction. This is a form of democratic education."

Hey, I'm open to using a child's own interests to help them learn ... but Sudbury takes a good thing way too far.

You say that Sudbury teaches kids how to be moral in a community. Maybe ... if that community is "Lord of the Flies."

Re: Raising a moral child

#74

Post by truelson »

amirmc wrote: post #14

Reading this, I'm pretty sure I can apply it to adult contexts too. Think about all the cases in organisations where 'values' are touted but the behaviour of people tells you how you really get ahead. Everything here is useful if you care about the organisational culture you want to create.

Funny you should say this. The author Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at Wharton and has a book called "Give and Take" that talks about a lot of this. And unlike most business books, it's all backed up with well researched data.

Re: Raising a moral child

#75

Post by gohrt »

saraid216 wrote: post #63
hyp0 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they controlled the effect of the actresses own response. Although they might be excellent actresses, being mean to a baby is probably going to make you feel pretty rotten, at a level it might be hard to control, and the baby could be picking up on that. Animals can pick up subtle cues that are not apparent to adults; I'd be amazed if babies weren't at least as good. I'm thinking of Clever Hans http://en.…

Both actions seem to qualify as "mean to a baby" to me. Assuming the actresses agreed with me, this would cancel out the variable.

Point is, the whole gift giving/dropping/witholding might be a red herring, and perhaps the same results could be replicated by having both people give a toy to a baby, but one acting scary and mean. And perhaps if two mannequins went through the same giving/dropping/witholding experiment, the result would not be observed. And perhaps if a smiling actress stole the toy, while a scowling actress dropped the toy, the affect would be reversed.

Re: Raising a moral child

#76

Post by gohrt »

Taek wrote: post #46
nevinera wrote: post #39

Modern parenting literature seems largely to be about manipulating your child into being who and what you want them to be. 'Tricks' and 'techniques' abound, and every other article is about 'teaching' your child to achieve/empathize/compete. You know what works extra- extra- well? Be the kind of person you want your kids to be. Treat them like a decent person treats other decent people and that's the behavior they wi…

I felt a lot of this when I was growing up. A lot of times I could feel my dad trying to mold me into the best type of person possible. Not that it was unwelcome or that he was doing the wrong thing, but in a lot of ways it felt weird and unnatural. Sometimes it felt like he was a lot more guarded around me, like he couldn't be who he really was because he was trying to set the best possible example and be the best p…

Indeed, your father had trouble because we was trying to sculpt you without actually being a role model, and you noticed the different between his words and actions. The article discusses this phenomenon.

Re: Raising a moral child

#77

Post by gohrt »

AJ007 wrote: post #45
nevinera wrote: post #39

Modern parenting literature seems largely to be about manipulating your child into being who and what you want them to be. 'Tricks' and 'techniques' abound, and every other article is about 'teaching' your child to achieve/empathize/compete. You know what works extra- extra- well? Be the kind of person you want your kids to be. Treat them like a decent person treats other decent people and that's the behavior they wi…

The best thing my parents did was be consistent. Early on I learned how to behave because I could predict my parent's reactions. How can a child learn to behave when all adult figures are erratic and irrational? Even the smallest things, like telling a kid Santa Claus is real can cause them to discount the value of truth. Reading behavioral psychology studies should require a skeptics hat. I'm not calling out these s…

The famous "marshmallow experiment" is great evidence for this. When the original experiment was re-analyzed, researchers found that children from stable, consistent environments, with reliable trustworthy adults, were better able to withold temptation and show patience to win a "2 marshmallow" delayed reward in exchange for a sacrifice of "1 marshmallow" now.

Re: Raising a moral child

#78

Post by Taek »

gohrt wrote: post #76
Taek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt a lot of this when I was growing up. A lot of times I could feel my dad trying to mold me into the best type of person possible. Not that it was unwelcome or that he was doing the wrong thing, but in a lot of ways it felt weird and unnatural. Sometimes it felt like he was a lot more guarded around me, like he couldn't be who he really was because he was trying to set the best possible example and be the best p…

Indeed, your father had trouble because we was trying to sculpt you without actually being a role model, and you noticed the different between his words and actions. The article discusses this phenomenon.

He was trying to be an actual role model. In many ways, he did a good job. In places where he wasn't perfect though, he hid that fact instead of being upfront.

I don't know what would have been best, but especially as I got older I would have preferred complete transparency. He was a good man, but I wish I had known more about his flaws. It would have given me more insight into my own.

Re: Raising a moral child

#79

Post by not-gro-tsen »

nevinera wrote: post #39

Modern parenting literature seems largely to be about manipulating your child into being who and what you want them to be. 'Tricks' and 'techniques' abound, and every other article is about 'teaching' your child to achieve/empathize/compete. You know what works extra- extra- well? Be the kind of person you want your kids to be. Treat them like a decent person treats other decent people and that's the behavior they wi…

I agree with that. Following Gandhi, I'll say: be the change you want to see in your family.

Re: Raising a moral child

#80

Post by MarkPNeyer »

i had to learn the opposite message here. our society tells us so much stuff about being kind and caring, and there are very few messages about being able to stick up for yourself, being able to make reasonable requests and being able to say no to people who are not treating you fairly.

i had a roommate who didn't pay rent. i couldn't bring myself to confront the roommate because i felt like i "made of lot of money" and they didn't make much money and they had problems. i imagined them arguing with me and was scared and hurt by this image; i have no way to tell someone 'i deserve what i have and you don't' because i know i was born into a loving family that raised me and took care of me and pushed me to succeed. i can't take credit for those things.

i finally had to tell myself "it's not just ok to put yourself first. you have to insist on it; if you don't get rent from your roommate, you're letting them take from the people you love took; when your roommate doesn't pay rent, they are ruining your mood which hurts your friends and family."

it's hard. i finally said 'fuck being a good person, i'll do what i want and what benefits me and those i love.' this doesn't mean i go around being an ass to people all the time; i'm still generous when i tip and i try to look out for people.

but now i'm different. if i sense someone is trying to abuse or push me around at all, i see them as a predator. when homeless people asking for money used to make me feel like a bad person for being successful, now i see them as predators who use negative emotions to try and take my positive feelings away. yes, they're suffering. but i can't help them, and giving them money doesn't help them either.

show your kids how to be good, sure. but for god's sake teach them to say no to people who make unreasonable requests, and give them practice asking for things they are owed.

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