Live data from Hacker News

Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

blog.beatunes.com

41–50 of 77 posts

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#41
post #2

It's not only the difference (or none) between 16 or 24-bit, but it's mostly about the quality of the DAC that is being used - in this case a very high-end one. Then again, it's been proven time and time again that the average person can't even hear the difference between mp3 or FLAC. Considering you'd also need proper high-end monitor headphones, i believe this is more about marketing, the brand and the pitch than i…

Another problem is that "hear the difference" is so often defined as "hear the difference between 30 second samples repeated a dozen times." The testing impacts our experience immensely.

It isn't equivalent enough to real music, and the human auditory sensory perception and recall systems just aren't perfect enough to make accurate judgements in those test cases. When testing you end up looking for discrepancies you can identify with words and identifiable momentary observations, things like "I can definitely hear this passage the notes are more muddled together in the compressed file." But you miss so many things that show up as minor feelings of unidentifiable hunches. Of course, you could change the format of the test, but even still, "identifying" is not "listening."

Things you can not identify, or talk about, or remember, or form sentences about, can still impact your musical experience. Our ears and brains are complex, and the range of input that is perceived subconsciously is astounding. We accept this for vision, for taste, for emotions, for memory, but for some reason not for audio. The simple feelings that you can't put your finger on can be important to the experience even if they can't be identified. But if you start to talk about "realism" and "emotion" and "feeling," you are immediately blacklisted by the empirical measurement mafia.

There is so much truth to the fact that scientific measurements and empiricism are important in determining the decisions you make about your audio storage and listening. You shouldn't pay money for things you can prove won't make a difference, and there are so many things out there that fit that bill. But we shouldn't throw out entire possibilities of discussion just because they influence parts of our experience that are subconscious or unidentifiable in an A/B test.

Again, I'm not saying we should disregard scientific evidence, just that listening tests set a limit that might not be accurate. We're finding only things that can be tested, and many parts of the audio experience don't fit the test.

In this case, there are more bits down there, higher resolution at lower levels. It basically means you can turn up the amplification and receive more resolution regardless of amplified volume. But it also means you have more information, and that's worth something.

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#42

I have pretty good headphones (Sony MDR-V6). I can hear decently enough (although getting older). Like I noticed that the Deutche Gramaphone 111 years music collection I bought (256kbps mp3s) has taped performances from the 70 & 80s which have some tape his. Honestly as an end user its really good enough. If I was remixing this stuff and processing the audio I would want the non-compressed. (similar to shooting Raw p…

> Sometimes I think people get worked up about the quality of the recording and ignore the quality of the performance.

This is the main problem with audiophiles.

Improve your equipment until it makes your music awesome, then just enjoy it.

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#44
post #9

The author is likely using a 16-bit audio card to listen to the result, which is going to clip the least significant bits off anyway. If you undo the shifting with sox -v 4096, the quantization noise in the 16-bit version is audible, even on laptop speakers.

This is my only issue with the article - it's alluded that the -v and -b flags only perform multiplication and bit shifting.

By default, this is not true because sox will use a higher bit-count and perform dithering when converting to a lower bit format (ref http://blog.beatunes.com/2014/04/does-24-bit-audio-matter.ht... ) in order to remove the extra bits while reducing the impact on dynamic range.

In all fairness though, this is the same argument used in the Xiph article ( http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html ) in an attempt to justify the use of 16-bit over 24-bit, the prior allowing for a comparable dynamic range with the use of appropriate dithering techniques. I just think it's important to note that the process used with sox is doing more than simple arithmetic bit-shifts/multiplication.

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that: filesize(192kbps + 16bit) = 6*filesize(192kbps + 24bits) Also the point of both articles is that: You can't hear the difference. Look at MP3 vs WAV (or FLAC), MP3 won out (for consumers) because of it's filesize being so much smaller. Look at the compression differences: >> Uncompressed audio as stored on an audio-CD has a bit rate of 1,411.2 kbit/s,[not…

Trivial arithmetic: 192 ÷ 48 = 4 24 ÷ 16 = 1.5 4 × 1.5 = 6 The six times is also on the wrong side of your equation, I guess. But if you need a source, I can cite what you cited: > Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space. They were talking about both sampling rate and bit depth. Oh…

[deleted]

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#46
post #28

There has been a lot of talk about quantative aspects of but little about the qualitative. What does a 18khz square wave look like wher recorded and reproduced in 44.1 kHz. How is phase affecte?. Phase of an audio signal reaching the ears helps you perceive distance and position. How many samples are used to represent the frequencies at the higher end of the audible range. What is the quantization error difference be…

> What does a 18khz square wave look like wher recorded and reproduced in 44.1 kHz.

It looks like an 18khz sine wave, possibly with slightly reduced amplitude depending on the anti-aliasing filter rolloff and fc, but not enough to be audible (18khz isn't audible for a large portion of the population anyway).

> How is phase affecte?.

Probably delayed a bit by the anti-aliasing filter.

> Phase of an audio signal reaching the ears helps you perceive distance and position.

Not at 18khz, the wavelength is too short for your ears to notice any realistic group delay. High frequency localization is most done by ILD and effects caused by ear shape.

> What is the quantization error difference between 16 and 24.

Quantization error in a DAC just defines the noise floor. 16 and 24bit DACs are usually within a few dB of each other in dynamic range, it's really not audible.

> And if the author can't hear the difference between 4bit audio and 12bit audio I question what he/she is listening on. The aliasing would be HUGE.

What does aliasing have to do with bit depth?

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#47
post #45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trivial arithmetic: 192 ÷ 48 = 4 24 ÷ 16 = 1.5 4 × 1.5 = 6 The six times is also on the wrong side of your equation, I guess. But if you need a source, I can cite what you cited: > Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space. They were talking about both sampling rate and bit depth. Oh…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#48
At the last year's IFA (http://b2b.ifa-berlin.com/en/Home.html) there was a demonstration of a 24-bit audio player with corresponding high quality audio files and headphones. The results, even though it was a single test, were very good. Of course the issue is, the whole chain has to be 24-bit, if you're going to pump your 128kbps MP3 there the difference is probably negligible (not to mention the 1-bit DACs commonly used, that's one of the elephants in the room)

About the MP3 files, yes, the difference is audible. But of course you need good headphones.

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The six times figure is for 192kbps and 24 bit. The move from 16 to 24 bit alone would just result in an increase of 50 %.

Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that: filesize(192kbps + 16bit) = 6*filesize(192kbps + 24bits) Also the point of both articles is that: You can't hear the difference. Look at MP3 vs WAV (or FLAC), MP3 won out (for consumers) because of it's filesize being so much smaller. Look at the compression differences: >> Uncompressed audio as stored on an audio-CD has a bit rate of 1,411.2 kbit/s,[not…

That equation is so wrong.

filesize(192kHz + 24bit) = 6 * filesize(48kHz + 16bit)

It also only applies directly to raw audio like pcm. Once you encode it (to, say, flac) some of that size increase could disappear depending on the waveform.

I don't know how mp3 is defined for higher dynamic range, but I know frequency range/sampling rate doesn't matter, because a 128kbps mp3 is 128kbps whether the frequency cutoff is 14kHz or 20kHz. Isn't a 192kbps mp3 from a 16/48 master the same size as a 192kbps mp3 from a 24/192 master?

Re: Does pono's 24-bit audio matter? Hear for yourself.

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that: filesize(192kbps + 16bit) = 6*filesize(192kbps + 24bits) Also the point of both articles is that: You can't hear the difference. Look at MP3 vs WAV (or FLAC), MP3 won out (for consumers) because of it's filesize being so much smaller. Look at the compression differences: >> Uncompressed audio as stored on an audio-CD has a bit rate of 1,411.2 kbit/s,[not…

That equation is so wrong. filesize(192kHz + 24bit) = 6 * filesize(48kHz + 16bit) It also only applies directly to raw audio like pcm. Once you encode it (to, say, flac) some of that size increase could disappear depending on the waveform. I don't know how mp3 is defined for higher dynamic range, but I know frequency range/sampling rate doesn't matter, because a 128kbps mp3 is 128kbps whether the frequency cutoff is…

All this isn't about MP3, but FLAC which is lossless, so even for the compressed version the same ratios should approximately hold.
Post reply on HN