My Ideas, My Boss’s Property • Hacker News Board

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#11

Post by ganeumann » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

the_ancient wrote: post #5

rahimnathwani wrote: post #2

If part of your job is to create ideas within some domain, and you can't control exactly when said ideas will crystallize, should it matter whether you 'got' an idea whilst 'at work' rather than in the shower, or on the way to work? The line is difficult to draw precisely with legal language, so companies err on the side which protects them best (hoping employees will sign anyway, given they've already gone through t…

The bigger problem is not the ideas that relate to your every day job... But Say your a Aerospace Engineer working on rockets and on your off time you write a scifi book, after your done you take it to a publisher, they publish it, and then your employer claims ownership over that book... and sues you That type of shit happens all the time, and while that is an extreme example, there are all kinds of examples like a…

you write a scifi book...and then your employer claims ownership over that book...That type of shit happens all the time

Source?

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#12

Post by stavrianos » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

drhayes9 wrote: post #8

keypusher wrote: post #4

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

Of course, IANAL. I also don't like those kinds of employment clauses. The way I understand it those clauses are written to prevent the kind of situation where you have a problem at work, can't solve it, go home, solve it, then offer to license it to your employer the following day for a reasonable charge.

Exactly this. If employers only have claim to ideas you have during work hours, you can claim to have thought to directly-work-related-idea-X outside that window (ie, in the shower), and therefore be justified in selling it to their competitor. It's just simpler for employers to make a blanket claim on everything and then fight things on a case-by-case basis in the other direction if need be.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#13

Post by vanattab » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

the_ancient wrote: post #5

rahimnathwani wrote: post #2

If part of your job is to create ideas within some domain, and you can't control exactly when said ideas will crystallize, should it matter whether you 'got' an idea whilst 'at work' rather than in the shower, or on the way to work? The line is difficult to draw precisely with legal language, so companies err on the side which protects them best (hoping employees will sign anyway, given they've already gone through t…

The bigger problem is not the ideas that relate to your every day job... But Say your a Aerospace Engineer working on rockets and on your off time you write a scifi book, after your done you take it to a publisher, they publish it, and then your employer claims ownership over that book... and sues you That type of shit happens all the time, and while that is an extreme example, there are all kinds of examples like a…

Any examples of when such a thing has happened? I see how those clauses could be construde to apply to such a situation but I have never heard of such an extreme example in practice.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#14

Post by vanattab » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

the_ancient wrote: post #5

rahimnathwani wrote: post #2

If part of your job is to create ideas within some domain, and you can't control exactly when said ideas will crystallize, should it matter whether you 'got' an idea whilst 'at work' rather than in the shower, or on the way to work? The line is difficult to draw precisely with legal language, so companies err on the side which protects them best (hoping employees will sign anyway, given they've already gone through t…

The bigger problem is not the ideas that relate to your every day job... But Say your a Aerospace Engineer working on rockets and on your off time you write a scifi book, after your done you take it to a publisher, they publish it, and then your employer claims ownership over that book... and sues you That type of shit happens all the time, and while that is an extreme example, there are all kinds of examples like a…

Any examples of when such a thing has happened? I see how those clauses could be construde to apply to such a situation but I have never heard of such an extreme example in practice.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#15

Post by spiritplumber » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

gkoberger wrote: post #7

keypusher wrote: post #4

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

I dislike it (and most forward-thinking companies wouldn't risk scaring off people who are the type that work on their own time), however I can see the reasons. How do they know you did it at home, not during work hours? How do they know it didn't affect your work? If you're salaried, there aren't set start/stop times. How do they know they weren't paying you at the time you came up with the idea, or thought through…

They'd have to take my word for it. If you can't trust me, don't hire me.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#16

Post by PythonicAlpha » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

That is the reason, I am against the term "Intellectual Property".

Ideas are (naturally) belonging to the person who had the ideal. "Intellectual property" in contrast is "owned" to those that have enough money to buy it.

This notion of making more and more parts of human life own-able and thus putting a price tag on it, is just devaluating these parts and our own living.

In result, we will be slaves of the big corporations and the billionaires of the world.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#17

Post by kjs3 » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:34 AM UTC

I really hate blanket IP restrictions in employee agreements, and take pains to get folks to carve out areas that we don't have rights to. But having had more than one employee who was really only skating by, only to find they were spending more than half of their work hours on their side idea, which was pretty much in competition with part of our offering, I can understand the attraction of these clauses.

Ethics is a two way street. I shouldn't own every thought that comes into your head as an employee, but if you're dickish enough to think "pay me while I build a business at your expense and on your time" is a business plan, then I don't have a problem making that attitude painful.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#18

Post by monochr » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:34 AM UTC

drhayes9 wrote: post #8

keypusher wrote: post #4

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

Of course, IANAL. I also don't like those kinds of employment clauses. The way I understand it those clauses are written to prevent the kind of situation where you have a problem at work, can't solve it, go home, solve it, then offer to license it to your employer the following day for a reasonable charge.

And why is that unreasonable? If I did it on my own time and my own resources they should pay for it. Jobs aren't slave contracts where a company gets to own everything about me.

And if an employ doesn't do any work at work and just does this sort of thing: fire them, then hire them as a consultant. The business just lost most of the tax burden of supporting an employee, e.g. pay roll taxes, insurance, etc. And the employee just got even more intensives to work the way they were before.

I really don't get Americans. Capitalism is good everywhere, but not in the workplace where we need to treat everyone like the dirty peasant they are.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#19

Post by dfa0 » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:35 AM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #16

That is the reason, I am against the term "Intellectual Property". Ideas are (naturally) belonging to the person who had the ideal. "Intellectual property" in contrast is "owned" to those that have enough money to buy it. This notion of making more and more parts of human life own-able and thus putting a price tag on it, is just devaluating these parts and our own living. In result, we will be slaves of the big corpo…

Yeah, but the American dreams is to have one good idea and milk it for the rest of your natural life, then pass on the rights to your offspring who can milk it...and so on.

That way you can exponentially create useless people.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#20

Post by PythonicAlpha » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 1:37 AM UTC

Don't think, that in Germany the situation is that much better. We might not have those agreements in the contracts, since in Germany there are (luckily) many regulations what can be put into contracts. But the German law has also some specialties: For example, when you make an invention in your free time, even when it has nothing to do with your current job, you must first ask your employer, if he wants to buy the invention, if you want or not.