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Mozilla Moving Forward

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Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#101

Post by king_jester »

natural219 wrote: post #3

I'm still mad about the Brendan Eich thing. Like, mad . I'm totally fine with anybody pursuing whatever kind of political agenda they want, but at the moment you start to derail real progress, the moment you attack one of the best organizations who has literally been busting its ass for the last decade to change the world for no profit... Well, you declared war. I think this whole debacle should be a rallying cry tha…

I feel like there's a bingo card that has all of your half-assed excuses on it.

> I'm totally fine with anybody pursuing whatever kind of political agenda they want, but at the moment you start to derail real progress, the moment you attack one of the best organizations who has literally been busting its ass for the last decade to change the world for no profit...

I'm fine with pursuing your politics until I feel your politics are inconvenient.

> Well, you declared war. I think this whole debacle should be a rallying cry that we're not going to accept this kind of bullying anymore.

Not tolerating bullies that seek to curtail your existence through law does not make you a bully.

> The worst part is, the progressive platform has some really important things to say about the way we live. We're not an equal society yet. We still have more changes we need to make to secure the freedom and happiness of everybody, especially groups that have been historically marginalized.

How exactly are you going to do that by letting the CEO of Mozilla be a supporter of Prop 8? How exactly are you helping anyone by outright enshrining in law a discrimination against gay folks?

> All the more reason to shut down the bullies who have domineered the narrative, produced nothing but useless bickering, and have sought nothing but divisiveness at every turn in the everlasting quest for more pageviews. I'm looking at you, Gawker.

Of course, all those people who are affected by this are just being decisive and mean, leave Brendan Eich alone!

> Don't tolerate this any more. Brendan Eich was just one casualty. It's time to start sticking up for ourselves.

Sticking up for ourselves is what people were doing by voicing their complaints with Eich and his support for Prop 8. Nobody was launching a campaign to strip him of his rights in law.

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#102

Post by bzbarsky »

bkor wrote: post #7
natural219 wrote: post #3

I'm still mad about the Brendan Eich thing. Like, mad . I'm totally fine with anybody pursuing whatever kind of political agenda they want, but at the moment you start to derail real progress, the moment you attack one of the best organizations who has literally been busting its ass for the last decade to change the world for no profit... Well, you declared war. I think this whole debacle should be a rallying cry tha…

"the moment you attack one of the best organizations" Nobody attacked Mozilla. You're totally off base.

Death threats against Mozilla employees and contributors don't count as attacks on Mozilla in your book?

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#104

Post by carlio »

msbarnett wrote: post #94
carlio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bkor said "Nobody attacked Mozilla." - I was merely providing a counter example.

So would you then agree that Brandon Eich attacked LGBT mozillans, and Californians in general?

I presented a fact with no opinion attached, I have no desire to join the debate. I'm not sure why you've chosen my post to reply to, there are plenty of others who post actual opinions you can discuss.

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#105

Post by quasque »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #74
ender7 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Accepting each other's beliefs" seems like a simple solution, but it has a very problematic result. To LGBT Mozillians, this becomes "you must respect beliefs that say that you are a second-class citizen." No one should feel like they must respect beliefs that devalue their person.

Why not? Religious people get ridiculed all the time, people drink and eat pork around Muslims, and yet somehow they fit in fine. And being a member of a religion isn't always a choice, being that usually you're born into it and your name identifies you as such.

By implication, are you saying that being homophobic is not a choice?

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#106

Post by qwerta »

natural219 wrote: post #3

I'm still mad about the Brendan Eich thing. Like, mad . I'm totally fine with anybody pursuing whatever kind of political agenda they want, but at the moment you start to derail real progress, the moment you attack one of the best organizations who has literally been busting its ass for the last decade to change the world for no profit... Well, you declared war. I think this whole debacle should be a rallying cry tha…

I think most people hate him subconsciously for inventing JavaScript abomination. The current back splash is just an camouflage for that :-)

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#107

Post by Tloewald »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #86
Tloewald wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism?

Yes, traditional Buddhist beliefs are quite sexist (many sects believe women must get reincarnated as men before they're able to achieve liberation), and uphold traditional views of marriage. Edit - have to add though, that Buddhists are generally very tolerant of those of opposing beliefs, and still preach compassion and love above all else.

I think you're confusing culture with religion. (A similar example is female genital mutilation, which is a cultural phenomenon and not a Muslim teaching. IANATheologist.)

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#108

Post by baddox »

nostromo wrote: post #44
natural219 wrote: post #3

I'm still mad about the Brendan Eich thing. Like, mad . I'm totally fine with anybody pursuing whatever kind of political agenda they want, but at the moment you start to derail real progress, the moment you attack one of the best organizations who has literally been busting its ass for the last decade to change the world for no profit... Well, you declared war. I think this whole debacle should be a rallying cry tha…

And where do you draw the line? Are you going to defend people that oppose Women's Suffrage too? What about slavery supporters? These were just political opinions once too. But today you'll find that they get you fired as CEO. And for good reason: blacks and women (and gays) are your customers and employees and business partners.

It sounds like you need to be able to predict the future in order to know what political views are currently acceptable for CEOs to support. What if in the future we live in a stateless socialist society, and the idea of wage labor or private ownership of means of production is widely considered immoral or repugnant? Or what if in the future we live in a stateless capitalist society, where the idea of taxation or economic regulation is widely considered morally repugnant? Or worse yet, what if society reverts back to considering slavery acceptable and abolitionism repugnant?

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#109

Post by bzbarsky »

radmuzom wrote: post #81
kaonashi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with the way he was treated. To say that somehow he was the victim of bullying, when he was the one who was taking action to deny other people their rights, is so morally backwards I have a hard time conceding that you're arguing in good faith.

It's strange that this is getting downvoted. Nobody went and physically abused Eich to remove him as CEO. It's strange that those who are supporting Eich for his right to his own views are against our right to express outrage.

The right to express outrage is not an absolute. See http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/bz/archives/2014/04/speech_an... for what I consider some obvious limitations on it.

You're saying there were no instances of item #1 on my list, and I believe you are correct. However, there certainly were instances of item #2.

Re: Mozilla Moving Forward

#110

Post by king_jester »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #68
twoodfin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not. I think the folks who feel someone's political actions and views are a good reason to shun or punish them are wrong. I don't care what you're for or against: If you participate non-violently in a political debate and don't let your views interfere with your work, including how you treat your coworkers, I'm happy to work with you or for you. Or grab a beer with you and try to change your mind.

Why not? They already burned Eich at the stake, why not apply the same scrutiny to everyone?

If by burned at the stake you mean rightly called out questionable contributions that flies in the face of respecting LGBT Mozilla employees and then deciding not to say anything about it or make an apology, then yes he was burned at the stake.
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