Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#121

Post by mikegreen » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:04 PM UTC

pakile wrote: post #50

bpowah wrote: post #36

I don't understand how the '14 model S is "AWD equivalent".

Scroll down to "Cold Weather Performance" on this page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/performance I forgot to write about this on www.teslacost.com, but one reason I didn't consider the Model S early on is b/c it's RWD and I wanted AWD for Tahoe and the like. Then I saw the above video.

There is no way a car with only the ability to power the rear wheels can compare to an AWD drivetrain.

Even with the ability to pulse/modulate the brakes and keep the car from spinning, it will only prevent sliding off a cliff by taking you around that corner at 8mph (notional absurdly low speed here). That is because it will only be able to use the braking + lateral portion of the front tires available grip. If there is no need for braking, just lateral grip which isn't going to be much on a poor snowy road, anyhow. The rear tires have to work doubly as hard in this scenario as well - they have to maintain lateral grip while accelerating (or simply putting power down enough to maintain speed).

A true AWD (or 4x4) would be able to use the acceleration and lateral grip, meaning, the tire can be accelerating and turning. This takes the load off the rear wheels for putting down engine power. Thus, to move at the same speed, the rear tires only have to use much less of their available grip for acceleration and can concentrate on lateral grip (not fishtailing/oversteer situation as above RWD would). An intelligent AWD system will transfer power to whatever wheel has the most grip as well.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#122

Post by dm2 » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:12 PM UTC

robmcm wrote: post #94

dm2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that many people can't own an electric vehicle because neither their apartment/condo or work has a place to charge it. You basically have to be a home owner in order to own an electric vehicle. That's not an easy situation to solve either.

I live in London and this is an issue that a lot of potential EV owners. Having seen how the councils have added "club car" spaces for car rental schemes I could see them adding charge parking spaces, potentially with free electricity. Hopefully this will be a non issue in a few years.

It's not that easy in the US, the residential areas are much less dense and parking lots are huge.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#123

Post by plg » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:19 PM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #65

plg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also NPV is nice and all, but if you have $5k for a downpayment and you need to finance the rest, there aren't many people who can afford a $95k car loan. Not to mention the interest cost. Hey don't get me wrong, I think Tesla is the future and I would love to own one... but it seems like a "not ready yet" proposition

I think he's taking as given that he can afford the car. Which is fine, if he can afford the car. A decision model is not necessarily meant for all possible audiences. Sometimes it's particular to a person in a particular situation.

true

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#124

Post by thefreeman » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:22 PM UTC

morganvachon wrote: post #106

bsdetector wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $12k battery placement cost is not included in the spreadsheet, not to mention that this is the cost if purchased 8 years ahead of time and purchasing it later will probably be more expensive. He's already bought the car and so he should know how his insurance cost has changed, but doesn't mention how much it changed. The model also does not include property tax. I'm assuming California has a car property tax of…

>...so basically this is justifying his purchase to himself, little more than that. I don't see where he said otherwise.

I think making a domain entirely dedicated to it is evidence that it wasn't intended as just self justification.

edit: On further thought, maybe not. It does seem to be the trend to do websites for a single topic or piece of writing. I would still take it as indication you are presenting it to others though.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#125

Post by greedo » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:39 PM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #85

mikeash wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much does a new electric motor for a Tesla cost versus a new gas motor for a similar car? I'd guess it would be significantly cheaper, but I certainly could be wrong. I don't know that much about cars. Downvoted an honest question stated in a reasonable manner? Come on .

$10-20,000 for a 400hp electric motor. A gas engine would cost a couple hundred bucks.

$200 for a 400HP car engine... They hyperbole is strong with this one.

The last time I had an engine rebuilt (mid 1980s) it was over $1100, and this was for a 67 HP VW Beetle engine.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#126

Post by joezydeco » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:40 PM UTC

oasisbob wrote: post #89

techsupporter wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My electrician in the Seattle area quoted me $700, including parts and permit, to install a weather-shielded 240V outlet with separate breaker on the outside of my house directly above the electric meter, next to where a car is parked, and on the opposite side of the wall where my breaker panel lives for another purpose. (I don't have a garage so it would have to go outside if I did want to charge a car.) The cost pr…

For what it's worth, at least renters have some protection from the FCC (on paper, at least) when it comes to antennas: "The OTARD rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above [...]" http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/article/Association/FCC_Sate... Given that many areas mandate…

I've used OTARD against a condo board where I lived, back when satellite dishes were still new. OTARD could primarily exist because unit owners could install dishes in areas that were "common" by the legal definition, such as the exterior of a building, but "semi-private" by virtue of the unit owner being the only one to have access to it, such as a balcony.

OTARD let you install a dish on your balcony, but not on the roof of the building or the front lawn since that area was common to all owners.

I can't imagine a similar rule letting Tesla owners dig up parking lots and install charging stations for their own private use. A parking lot is the prime example of a common area that everyone can use and nobody can control on an individual basis. And the outlets on the outside of a building or in a parking lot are usually for the benefit of common-area maintenance workers, not individual unit owners.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#127

Post by sergiosgc » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:47 PM UTC

D_Alex wrote: post #105

sergiosgc wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a perfectly written comment, downvoted. I don't agree with the conclusion, I question several of the premises, but I can't understand downvoting based on agreement. The comment is good, well written, and adds to the discussion. It should be upvoted. Are there voting guidelines for HN? Am I in the wrong here?

That comment has so much bullshit in it - here is a sampling: >The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy No, it is true on all counts. I'd explain in detail, but this is so weird I dont really know where to start. >90% of a vehicle's maintenance has nothing to do with its motor Rubbish. In a gasoline (or diesel) powered car, the majority of maintenance i…

I know all that. I don't agree with the original comment, and was not defending it. I was defending the right of its author to have his comment seen and discussed.

I disagree on the downvoting response to the comment. The answer to a flawed argument shouldn't be downvoting. The answer should be a dismantling of the assumptions and the argument.

Downvoting is a tool for silencing a comment. Some comments should be silenced. Trolls, childish behaviours, one-liners should all be silenced. Generically, stuff that does not lead to a productive discussion.

I know many people genuinely believe the stuff written on the comment I was referring to. This is not a comment that should be silenced. Better than silencing the guy through downvotes would be to correct him and enlighten all those who believe electric motors require oil changes.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#128

Post by robmcm » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 1:59 PM UTC

hellweaver666 wrote: post #112

robmcm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in London and this is an issue that a lot of potential EV owners. Having seen how the councils have added "club car" spaces for car rental schemes I could see them adding charge parking spaces, potentially with free electricity. Hopefully this will be a non issue in a few years.

I live in Amsterdam, we have Electric Charge parking spots all over the city, but I believe you have to subscribe to something to use them and they probably only make up 1 in 20 spaces (which are already in very high demand in this city) so you probably also need a parking permit for the area as well.

I could see you getting free charge or subsidised in order to ramp up interest.

Could be a good incentive if you got free parking, or prime locations because you had an EV.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#129

Post by robmcm » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

dm2 wrote: post #122

robmcm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in London and this is an issue that a lot of potential EV owners. Having seen how the councils have added "club car" spaces for car rental schemes I could see them adding charge parking spaces, potentially with free electricity. Hopefully this will be a non issue in a few years.

It's not that easy in the US, the residential areas are much less dense and parking lots are huge.

Less dense increased the chances of off street parking doesn't it?

Also I don't see how the size of a parking lot changes things, if anything it means you could incentivise by having the EV slots closer to the attraction, plus have solar roofs to harness some cheap power.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#130

Post by mikeash » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 2:09 PM UTC

Avshalom wrote: post #91

mikeash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice, but I'm specifically wondering about the motor "oil changes" and the cost of the motor itself, and this doesn't address that at all.

Why are you specifically wondering about th motor oil? Do you think that getting some to admit teslas don't need oil changes will some how prove that the power windows won't fail; rocks will never crack the windshield; one headlight won't mysteriously stop working after 6 months; tires won't lose tread etc. Because that's the actual maintainance cost of a car. Modulo nobody's engines need replacing in 10 years. Oil c…

Because I saw the statement that "electric motors need oil changes too" and I wondered what exactly that meant. Please don't assume that every single person in a discussion must have some kind of ulterior motive. I'm not trying to prove anything about the overall maintenance cost of a Tesla. I just want to know what kind of "oil changes" its motor needs and how that fits in with the official maintenance schedule, because I like to know things and that one piqued my curiosity.