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Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

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Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#51

Post by jesusmichael »

jesusmichael wrote: post #33
natural219 wrote: post #19

I have also ran similar calculations in my head. I think what I'd want to be convinced is a thorough analysis from a mechanical/industrial engineer on how much you can expect to save from a fully electric car on maintenance. The claim I've heard from Tesla is that, since there are much fewer moving parts within an electric motor, the car will last substantially longer. While this makes intuitive sense, I would love t…

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material…

My source is an industrial electric motor supplier. Google "400hp electric motor"

I'm not saying tesla's require oil changes as a gas engine does... oil will last quite a long time when not contaminated by hydrocarbons.

But even sealed bearings need to be repacked after so much wear. To parts can't move against on another without generating heat, which will degrade a lubricant and allow wear.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#52

Post by pakile »

ams6110 wrote: post #27

His use case for the Odyssey must be atypical from what I've seen, that is, it's used mostly for short local trips. What most people I know use their minivans for is that, plus family road trips. Not really an option with the Tesla.

Feel free to play with the annual mileage figures on the model. For my family's situation, I played around with it with mostly either 12K or 15K annual miles.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#53

Post by bsilvereagle »

pakile wrote: post #39
bsilvereagle wrote: post #9

Does anyone know why the Net Present Value in the cash flow model is so much different? Depreciation Model: $39,889 Cash Flow Model: $62,874

Travis (who forked my model to create the cash flow model) and I chatted about this. It's primarily due to the effect of time value on money, when you finance the car. If you were to purchase the car outright, you would want to use the 1st tab; vs. financing, the 2nd tab.

Ah I missed that payments were being made on a loan, thanks for clarifying that.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#54

Post by schiffern »

bsilvereagle wrote: post #47
jusben1369 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is a replacement battery? EDIT: found the answer below. Seems like that contradicts your post a little.

"A Battery Replacement Option will be available for purchase soon. The option allows you to pre-purchase a new battery to be installed after eight years for a fixed price: $8,000 for 40 kWh batteries, $10,000 for 60 kWh batteries, and $12,000 for 85 kWh batteries." http://www.teslamotors.com/it_IT/forum/forums/battery-replac...

Note that this 'option' has never actually been available for purchase and relies heavily on projected future cost reductions.

The battery replacement price as of December 2013 is $44,564 for the 85 kWh battery and $37,102 for the 60 kWh battery. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089183_life-with-tesla-...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#55

Post by joezydeco »

Out of curiosity - what does it cost to have an electrician install a 240VAC outlet in your garage? Has anyone out there done it and can give an idea?

Teslas can charge off a 110 outlet, but they recommend using the 240 volt faster-charging unit. But most houses don't run 2-phase power out to the garage.

And what if you don't own a house? What do apartment and/or house renters do for charging?

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#56

Post by 001sky »

mikeash wrote: post #44
jesusmichael wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material…

Tesla doesn't seem to think their motors require oil changes. Are you saying that they're just letting their owners destroy the motors by going without necessary maintenance? Also, do you have a source on the $24,000 for their motor? That seems awfully high given that the thing is about the size of a loaf of bread. Hard to see what could make it so expensive.

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/under-the-tesl...

In addition to the motor, the schematic diagrams above seems to many moving parts that typically need work by 120,000 miles. Eg: steering (likely) differentials (likely) and in various parts of the suspension (internal). Whilst the specifics may be debatable, most of these items are wear items and require fluid changes and/or replacement internals. Things also like wheel bearings will need some preventive maintenance. If this spreadsheet was for a 50,000 mile interval or a lease perhaps you'd overlook these. A chassis for $30K+ with 120k on the clock would bring customers looking at the cost of these services, I would venture. One way luxury brands (at least in the past have) maintained the price premium of their new vehicles is to make the 100K and up maintence quite expensive.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#57

Post by mikeash »

001sky wrote: post #56
mikeash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't seem to think their motors require oil changes. Are you saying that they're just letting their owners destroy the motors by going without necessary maintenance? Also, do you have a source on the $24,000 for their motor? That seems awfully high given that the thing is about the size of a loaf of bread. Hard to see what could make it so expensive.

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/under-the-tesl... In addition to the motor, the schematic diagrams above seems to many moving parts that typically need work by 120,000 miles. Eg: steering (likely) differentials (likely) and in various parts of the suspension (internal). Whilst the specifics may be debatable, most of these items are wear items and require fluid changes and/or replacement internals. Thing…

That's nice, but I'm specifically wondering about the motor "oil changes" and the cost of the motor itself, and this doesn't address that at all.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#58

Post by 001sky »

mikeash wrote: post #57
001sky wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/under-the-tesl... In addition to the motor, the schematic diagrams above seems to many moving parts that typically need work by 120,000 miles. Eg: steering (likely) differentials (likely) and in various parts of the suspension (internal). Whilst the specifics may be debatable, most of these items are wear items and require fluid changes and/or replacement internals. Thing…

That's nice, but I'm specifically wondering about the motor "oil changes" and the cost of the motor itself, and this doesn't address that at all.

What's your theory on how they lubricate the spinning parts?

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#59

Post by mikeash »

001sky wrote: post #58
mikeash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice, but I'm specifically wondering about the motor "oil changes" and the cost of the motor itself, and this doesn't address that at all.

What's your theory on how they lubricate the spinning parts?

I'm sure it involves some sort of oil or grease or something of that nature.

But that alone doesn't tell me much. There's a pretty wide gulf between a gas motor that needs regular preventive lubricant changes every few thousand miles and other parts, e.g. wheel bearings, that are sealed and lubricated for the life of the part and can be expected to last a couple hundred thousand miles.

"Electric motors need oil changes too" implies something closer to the former than the latter.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#60

Post by mikeash »

ams6110 wrote: post #27

His use case for the Odyssey must be atypical from what I've seen, that is, it's used mostly for short local trips. What most people I know use their minivans for is that, plus family road trips. Not really an option with the Tesla.

There are a fair number of people who don't do road trips. It's not a universal thing.

For those who do, how often do they take them? If it's a once-a-year thing, you can rent something more suitable for fairly low cost. I see a lot of people basing their car buying decisions on activities they do once or twice a year and it puzzles me.

Finally, not all road trips are created equal. If you're regularly driving across Montana, the Tesla is probably not for you. For me, where my road trips consist of occasional trips from DC to NYC or Virginia Beach, the supercharger network means the Tesla would be fine.

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