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Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

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251–260 of 293 posts

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#251

You need to hire an attorney, one who works in business litigation (if you can find someone specializing in minority shareholder disputes, that much the better). Right now. If you're delaying on this point out of some idea of wanting to "try to fix things first" or "not wanting to be the bad guy," you're just shooting yourself in the foot and downing blood thinners to keep the wound from clotting. Working with an att…

I'd go for a shorter version, but: yes, you are right on. Important points: 1. Have legal counsel 2. Deal with the issue now, not later. I'd get a lawyer and fire the CTO. Small teams require absolute trust, and that is now breached. You'll find out in the process how the CEO aligns. Give your partner a heads up, but don't let yourself be moved from the task of firing the CTO.

> I'd get a lawyer and fire the CTO.

You're jumping the gun.

First, the way that the OP has framed his story indicates that he's not sure how he wants the situation to be resolved. One of the first questions any good attorney will ask him is "How would you ideally like the situation resolved?" The attorney can suggest possibilities, but unless the OP knows what he wants, an attorney can only be of so much help.

Second, based on what the OP wrote, it appears that he does question his capabilities. He says he's "not the best coder" and refers to technical and project management "problems we were having" that ostensibly developed while he was leading the company's development efforts. This should not be overlooked.

Third, it's important to note that just because you're a co-founder doesn't mean that your employment can't be terminated, and just because your employment is terminated doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be screwed out of what you have already earned. There's no indication here one way or the other that the OP's departure would involve funny business.

Finally, and most importantly, it's very unlikely that an experienced CTO would ask a co-founder to leave unless he had the support of the other co-founder. At the end of the day, if the OP's co-founder has lost confidence in him and doesn't believe that he can contribute to the company in other ways going forward, the OP has a very big problem that firing the CTO won't solve. The fact that the co-founder apparently hasn't delivered this message directly and tried to come up with an arrangement that allows the OP and the company to part ways cleanly and fairly suggests that the co-founder lacks the character and moral fortitude to lead a company.

The OP should have a conversation with an attorney, but he shouldn't forget about his opportunity cost. If you discover that you're not dealing with strong, ethical people, sometimes cutting your losses is the best approach. That can be hard to do, and it's not without risk, but people incapable of dealing honestly with their partners and employees, especially in difficult situations, don't usually have what it takes to build successful businesses anyway.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#252

The question I would try and answer if I were in your shoes is the following: Does he want me to leave the company or does he want me to stop writing production code for the product? If its the first one, there is likely a personal issue between the two of you that needs to be resolved one way or another. If you think the second option is what he is really trying to communicate, then I would look for other opportunit…

I was under the impression that "co-founder" carried a lot more weight than CTO; is this not the case? My gut feeling was that, if I were in the co-founder's shoes, I'd fire the CTO immediately.

> I was under the impression that "co-founder" carried a lot more weight than CTO

Depends on the circumstances. If one founder controls a majority share, they can fire anyone they wish.

In this current situation, if the CEO controls more than 50% of the shares and the CTO reports directly to the CTO, the CTO can fire the OP.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#253
Just like a founder is often not the best runtime CEO, a founder is often not the best programmer. "A few months" is short of the required experience for a senior software engineer by an order of magnitude. Engineers without experience cause debt that makes the code cost more to maintain over time. All of this is true.

Why did you start up in the first place? To change the world, or to have a place to hang out, or to learn things? Is there another place you can do that better now, at less cost?

Either find a niche where you are creating significant value in the current state of things, or get out to make room. Ask for a negotiated agreement with accelerated vesting of your options if you're not already owning.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#254
Definitely sounds like poor communication between founders.

As an aside, I've been the founding CEO of a company that raised money and was acquired. I think my gifts make me really effective in running a company from idea stage to first revenue. I'm likely not the right person to run that company once there are 1000 employees. I'm fine with that

I don't think there's anything wrong with the exec team asking you to scale back your contributions if your skill set no longer matches the needs of the company. It just sounds like your partners chose a shitty way to go about it.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#255
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-lawyer is going to have a very hard time ensuring they understand the consequences of a contract if it's cleverly written to fuck them.

Normally, when founding a company, there is trust among the founders and they do not try to fuck each other with maliciously written contracts.

Trust is often misplaced, and there are plenty of people who seem nice initially while working to screw you.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#256
Does the code you write reduce the costs or increase revenue of the business? Get those numbers together and compare them to the rest of development. If they compare favorably, share them with the CTO. If not, find a way to increase them.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#257

I don't know anything about business or founding a startup: but as an engineer in one, if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you (kudos!) and he/she has asked you to stop writing production code, you should listen. Coding "for old times sake" is pretty damaging when a team of actually trained engineers has just got your old broken code-base under control and instituted better engineering practices…

> if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you He doesn't do development himself(he does review everything before it goes into the production branch), simply that he knows better developers than I. I have re-written much of our original code to a point where it is of good quality, both in it's intended role and in readability. I did have a habit of cutting corners which later came back to bite us but…

Wait, what? You're less than 20 people and the CTO doesn't write code? That's news, and weird in all ways. Danger ahead! But there are many things I assume in this story. Is everyone full time? How many people are there? How much of your money/time so far versus other money? Did the other founder have the same vesting schedule? Are there Angel investors? Is the CTO a friend of your co founder or other investor? There's too much unknown here. Make sure you answer all of this for your own lawyer!

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#258
post #250
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense. Interesting. Can you give an example of such a place, and how things tend to work there? What would be your advice to the founder if they were in that country?

Continental European countries usually work that way. When Germans say "die sprechen nur noch über ihre Anwälte" (translation: they used to have a good relationship but now they only speak through their lawyers to each other), it means that the trust between two parties is broken beyond repair. Generally, by unilaterally involving a lawyer, you signal that there is no hope left to settle disputes on a basis of trust…

Eh, no, also in Germany it's perfectly normal to have a lawyer consulting on business matters with potential big impacts.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you He doesn't do development himself(he does review everything before it goes into the production branch), simply that he knows better developers than I. I have re-written much of our original code to a point where it is of good quality, both in it's intended role and in readability. I did have a habit of cutting corners which later came back to bite us but…

That's pretty sleek. He is in a rather powerful position then.

How? I would have thought that the improved and existing code base being my work would strengthen my hand.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#260

I don't know anything about business or founding a startup: but as an engineer in one, if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you (kudos!) and he/she has asked you to stop writing production code, you should listen. Coding "for old times sake" is pretty damaging when a team of actually trained engineers has just got your old broken code-base under control and instituted better engineering practices…

> if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you He doesn't do development himself(he does review everything before it goes into the production branch), simply that he knows better developers than I. I have re-written much of our original code to a point where it is of good quality, both in it's intended role and in readability. I did have a habit of cutting corners which later came back to bite us but…

Danger Will Robinson---what? He doesn't code?

I shouldn't judge from a piecemeal HN post. But the picture I'm getting is "Know-it-all Javatecht VP of Enterprise AbstractFactoryCorporateWarfareObject Development."

Here's some news: there's no such thing as a CTO (or for that matter, CEO) in a four-perspn company. It's cargo-cult status-seeking: the CTO of $BIG_CORPORATE where I used to work was rich and important, so I'll give myself the same title and I will be too. What's missed is that the actual status comes from having humans to boss around. So in a startup titles are basically equity: worthless until we're profitable.

Fire the CTO. He doesn't code, he's causing problems. If you really need him for his experience with "Enterprise-ready," hire him on a consulting basis for a few hours a week to tell you what to google. But if he's not coding...what is he doing?

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