Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 293 posts

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#241

Post by levosmetalo »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #96
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that "co-founder" carried a lot more weight than CTO; is this not the case? My gut feeling was that, if I were in the co-founder's shoes, I'd fire the CTO immediately.

This would be dumb though, because it would tank your company.

So, if that would tank the company noone gets nothing. If he doesn't fire the CTO, he gets nothing and company may or may not get anything. To me, pretty clear situation what would I do. I would risk the company to save myself from certain loose.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#242

Post by mabhatter »

ryan-allen wrote: post #124
bigiain wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, he may just have been saying exactly what the OP says himself: "I have improved significantly in the last few months from where I was (generally unstructured development, no tests, poor formatting / naming etc., but functional, generally coding to working with others instead of by myself) but he has said that it's not enough. We have hired another coder who I get along well with and I have learned from." There'…

We took commit access away from our CEO once (who was also an owner). It was fine. The fool who tells the business owner that he should probably leave _his own business_ may as well go and tie the noose to hang himself because that's what he's doing here. Fuck what is right, fuck what the CTO thinks. The business owners always have the last say. This CTO is toast.

but the CTO wouldn't be saying that unless there was another "conversation" out there. Why is this guy CTO anyway while a Co-owner is left at coder? You don't bring somebody in as "CTO" without a promise of a cut of the pie... and that cut is going to come from you obviously.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#243

Post by mabhatter »

mefistofele wrote: post #40

This "enterprise grade" terminology is suspicious. Did this CTO come up with that as a way to sell his value? Too often in our industry the word "enterprise" is a smokescreen. Did he bring some real value to the table in terms of what the customer is seeing, or just some basic good development practices sprinkled with magic "enterprise" fairy dust? Regardless, I have to agree with the other commenters. This guy is no…

there's a fundamental problem here if the "CTO" can talk down to an owner like that. Obviously YOU didn't hire the CTO, because he doesn't see YOU as his boss. There's already another conversation with this guy that you weren't part of. for sanity sake, get a lawyer to claw back what you can, and cut anchor at the next funding round. If you're straight forward that you want out then that might even make the new funders feel better. Just be sure to drop hints that this CTO needs to be cut out of ownership....

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#244

Post by levosmetalo »

6cxs2hd6 wrote: post #81
cantlookaway wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. > The rest of my advice assumes the CEO (your co-founder) has quite a bit of confidence in the CTO. This is the case, it is in my interest however to remain in the company because my equity is vested, the sooner I leave the less I will get in return, apart from my time, and opportunity cost I invested all my personal wealth.

Your question and many of the comments so far tend to focus on the CTO. I'd like to focus on your co-founder, the "CEO". If he wanted to start with a less-experienced technical person, and jettison them early on -- he could have hired an employee and paid them. Instead he co-founded with you, as a partner. He was happy to take your money -- you have skin in the game. He doesn't get to shoo you out the door now like a…

I agree with this point. The CEO does just what he was told to. I assume he's just an employee without ownership, and employees don't fire owners unless someone much stronger is behind them.

Definitely lawyer up, that would be a first thing. Then, if you want to regain control about he company, consider CEO your enemy, not the CTO. Invent a reason and fire the CTO, if you can do it. Then, step up as CTO yourself, or at least hire a person you trust. Then, hire COO, CFO, CMO. Make sure those are people that are loyal to you and where each one will take over one of the CEO responsibilities. At the latest stage, let those people document every mistake of CEO, and you try to push him out together with C team and investors.

That's exactly what he is doing to you. He convinced you to voluntarily step out from CTO position and hired his tool. Now, your chances to fight back are much worse from this position, but the war is not yet over.

So, lawyer up, read Machiavelli, know your enemy and fight fire with fire. Remember, the CEO that did this to you is not your friend anymore, and deserves whatever you do to him.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#245

Post by overgard »

I suppose I'm not clear on the power structure of your company, but to me that seems incredibly insubordinate and I would fire him immediately.

On the other hand, the fact that you're even asking this makes me think you might be too passive of a person to really be in a leadership role. (I don't mean that to be harsh, but you have to be honest with yourself about who you are).

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#246

Post by webwright »

Founder shuffling is not uncommon. Founders aren't always (or even often) great managers, leaders, or recruiters-- which is what you need to transition into if you're going to stay with the company. I'd encourage you to try to put yourself in their shoes. It doesn't feel fair for you, but if a co-founder who owned a huge vesting stake in the company didn't grow/perform like you'd hoped, would you want to negotiate their exit? Or would you keep them on out of loyalty, knowing that it hurt the company's recruiting efforts, culture, and chances of success?

It sounds like you've raised money, have a business co-founder, and have some other employees. All of those people are (rightfully) should be asking what's best for the company. Hopefully you are too. If the stock you're vesting (hopefully you have vesting schedule!) is outsized compared to the value you bring to the company, you need to fix the problem.

I'd ask your co-founder for their thoughts and (potentially) I'd ask your investors. Unless the CTO is going rogue, he's probably already got support on both of these fronts, which means you can't really do much other than make a scene and/or sue if they want to show you the door, which will damage your company, your stock in it, and your soul. No fun.

Assuming your co-founder agrees with the CTO (likely), options:

1) Say you love the company, don't want to leave, but acknowledge there is a problem with your compensation/value ratio. Negotiate to an agreeable role and pile of stock with the caveat that if you can prove yourself invaluable, you'd like to be able to come back to the table. If they push back, saying you aren't good enough, ask for a 3-6 month trial period to prove your mettle. Bust ass and become indispensable.

2) Leave gracefully, with a negotiated severance/stock package (know that they can dilute you and there are ways they can wipe you out at inopportune times: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/redfins-first-cto-shocked-surpr... )... But unless they are bad actors, you'll get a nice payday if there's even liquidity.

3) Pitch a fit. You'll lose this fight unless you guys botched the company setup or you have allies among the investors. This will hurt the company a lot and it's a bad path.

Good luck and (above all) congratulations for being instrumental in creating a viable company!

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#247

Post by ritwikt »

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #110

You need to hire an attorney, one who works in business litigation (if you can find someone specializing in minority shareholder disputes, that much the better). Right now. If you're delaying on this point out of some idea of wanting to "try to fix things first" or "not wanting to be the bad guy," you're just shooting yourself in the foot and downing blood thinners to keep the wound from clotting. Working with an att…

Please get a legal counsel and fire the CTO. At this early stage trust and respect is the only glue and he seems to have none for you at least.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#248

Post by webwright »

sergiosgc wrote: post #143
Bluestrike2 wrote: post #110

You need to hire an attorney, one who works in business litigation (if you can find someone specializing in minority shareholder disputes, that much the better). Right now. If you're delaying on this point out of some idea of wanting to "try to fix things first" or "not wanting to be the bad guy," you're just shooting yourself in the foot and downing blood thinners to keep the wound from clotting. Working with an att…

I'd go for a shorter version, but: yes, you are right on. Important points: 1. Have legal counsel 2. Deal with the issue now, not later. I'd get a lawyer and fire the CTO. Small teams require absolute trust, and that is now breached. You'll find out in the process how the CEO aligns. Give your partner a heads up, but don't let yourself be moved from the task of firing the CTO.

If the CTO is a pro, he had the support of the CEO and the investors (board of directors) before he ever brought it up.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#249

Post by Hermel »

ceejayoz wrote: post #199
Hermel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. This might be the US way of doing things. But be…

A non-lawyer is going to have a very hard time ensuring they understand the consequences of a contract if it's cleverly written to fuck them.

Normally, when founding a company, there is trust among the founders and they do not try to fuck each other with maliciously written contracts.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#250

Post by Hermel »

dmoney wrote: post #232
Hermel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. This might be the US way of doing things. But be…

> But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense. Interesting. Can you give an example of such a place, and how things tend to work there? What would be your advice to the founder if they were in that country?

Continental European countries usually work that way. When Germans say "die sprechen nur noch über ihre Anwälte" (translation: they used to have a good relationship but now they only speak through their lawyers to each other), it means that the trust between two parties is broken beyond repair. Generally, by unilaterally involving a lawyer, you signal that there is no hope left to settle disputes on a basis of trust and friendship. Consequently, my advise to the founder would be to discuss the situation with the co-founders and then try to do what's best for the company. The first priority should always be to find a solution by talking directly to each other. Telling the founder to hire a lawyer before having had an open discussion with the CEO is really bad advice.
Post reply on HN