Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#201

Post by hoodoof » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 12:32 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #187

hoodoof wrote: post #20

Listen ‎Eduardo Saverin: FIRST THING GET YOUR OWN LAWYER AND TALK TO THEM NOW! The key question here is : do you have equity, and how much equity do you have in percentage terms? If you are an equal cofounder, then when someone turns up and says "you have to leave cause better people have been employed", you say "fuck off". Think about it - EVERY company that grows will employ people who are better than the cofounder…

"Do you think that Zuckerberg is the best developer at Facebook - legend may say so but it's not true" What is this legend? I think everybody is aware of the fact that the infrastructure that allowed facebook to scale was not (and probably could not have been) built by Zuckerberg. He had guys like Adam D'Angelo working for him from the beginning.

The employees of tech companies with charismatic leaders sometimes elevate their Great Leader to legendary status in their field of expertise, whether its true or not. Worshipping is part of the tech company cult thing - you do see the parallel of course with cults and tech firms? There will be plenty who believe the Zuck is the best coder there or amongst the best at least.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#202

Post by brianpgordon » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 12:53 PM UTC

dchichkov wrote: post #132

marcus_holmes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree completely. I'd have a frank discussion with him and attempt to determine if this is political. If it is, fire him immediately even if there's short-term pain because the politics will f k the company anyway. If it's not political, and you agree with his assessment of your production code, then there's an R&D role that probably needs filling and that you've already proven you can do - finding profitable market…

I'd second your words about "bad coder" arguments. This argument is ridiculous, particularly if he had managed to to build a production system that is gaining traction. And did it single-handed (or in a team of two). I would disagree however about the advice to 'fire him immediately because the politics will fk the company'. The problem is, the moment there is some money on the table politics and power play starts. U…

I take it you've never had to work with bad code. It's ruinous to the company's prospects since it slows everyone down and makes' developers lives miserable until they quit. It starts to take an entire afternoon to make a simple change, and your business is paralyzed.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#203

Post by mmccaff » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 12:54 PM UTC

cantlookaway wrote: post #176

jonsterling wrote: post #43

I don't know anything about business or founding a startup: but as an engineer in one, if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you (kudos!) and he/she has asked you to stop writing production code, you should listen. Coding "for old times sake" is pretty damaging when a team of actually trained engineers has just got your old broken code-base under control and instituted better engineering practices…

> if you have hired a CTO who is better at engineering than you He doesn't do development himself(he does review everything before it goes into the production branch), simply that he knows better developers than I. I have re-written much of our original code to a point where it is of good quality, both in it's intended role and in readability. I did have a habit of cutting corners which later came back to bite us but…

The "better developers" sound suspiciously like unemployed friends of his.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#204

Post by emn13 » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:02 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #134

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be dumb though, because it would tank your company.

Leaving the situation as-is would tank that company. In a small team, infighting is a much bigger threat to survival than losing skills/results of any single individual.

Hmm, I'm sure infighting is bad, but often enough individuals do have skills and in particular experience with the setup and/or code and/or business contacts that the startup has made that you're not going to find a replacement nor train one without losing lots of time and money. Certainly that's an avoidable risk with effort, but I'm pretty sure that some level of infighting may be less risky than losing certain individuals.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#205

Post by saalweachter » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:05 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #183

danbmil99 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This right here. The money OP invested -- whether hard cash, or equivalent deferred pay or both -- should have resulted in direct, fully vested stock, just as it does for angels and VC's. (to clarify: it should vest at the rate that the work is performed, not over some arbitrary schedule). There's this underlying meme in our community that "elbow grease" investment -- working for low pay, no benefits, rejecting other…

What I don't get; shouldn't it already have vested if he is a founder? I'm not sure about the system there but when I found a company those shares are mine?

The advice has been given several times, on HN, that founders should vest, so that you don't need to claw back 1/3 the company from a founder who walks away a month in.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#206

Post by dkersten » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:12 PM UTC

notastartup wrote: post #91

He has NO point. He has no right to mouth you off like this. Take a cue from The Social Network. [leans down close to Mark, his voice low and dangerous] And I'll bet what you hated the most was that they identified me as a co-founder of Facebook, which I am. You better lawyer up asshole, because I'm not coming back for 30%, I'm coming back for EVERYTHING. [backs away from Mark slowly, still looking at him] Hint, that…

I think The Social Network is a bad example. I don't know what happened in real life, but in the movie the guy was never there. I wouldn't want an absentee co-founder to have 30% of my company (or even 5% for that matter) either if I was working on it full time.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#207

Post by Silhouette » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:15 PM UTC

Hermel wrote: post #164

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any competent attorney will tell you that you should never litigate on principle (such as "punishing" them). If that's your only reason, many attorneys will choose not to take you on as a client right then and there. All the court can do is use money to attempt to redress your grievances, assuming you win. But that's not why you need an attorney right now. Even if you're never going to file suit, an attorney will hel…

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. This might be the US way of doing things. But be…

Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand.

Ideally, yes, but it sounds like that ship sailed already.

Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders.

You don't have to tell them you hired a lawyer at first, when you're just looking for some basic advice about what your situation really is.

If it goes further and your lawyer is actively representing you when dealing with other people in a business context, and those other people take offence at this or it destroys trust, then you never really had a worthwhile relationship with them to begin with and you definitely want a lawyer in your corner.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#208

Post by Jean-Philipe » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:22 PM UTC

Being a CTO myself and having worked with smart people that were not as good coders, I think that in your case, the new CTO is just looking for a bad excuse to kick you out. Kicking out somebody who knows the system, product, infrastructure or code base from the beginning is generally a bad idea. Also, the line of professionalism between somebody like you (producing unstructured code without tests etc.) and genious like him is thinner than you think. He's either very arrogant or up to something. In any case, he definitely stepped over the line.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#209

Post by angrybits » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:25 PM UTC

Hermel wrote: post #164

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any competent attorney will tell you that you should never litigate on principle (such as "punishing" them). If that's your only reason, many attorneys will choose not to take you on as a client right then and there. All the court can do is use money to attempt to redress your grievances, assuming you win. But that's not why you need an attorney right now. Even if you're never going to file suit, an attorney will hel…

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. This might be the US way of doing things. But be…

Offending the people trying to screw you out of your earned rights and compensation should not be at the top of your list of things to avoid.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#210

Post by jbverschoor » Sun, Apr 13, 2014, 1:55 PM UTC

You hired the right guy, he's technically better than you Congrats!

So the second part is basically you getting a new job in the company. If there really is no place for you (which I would doubt) then you still keep some equity and go on.