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Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

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Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#161

Post by bowlofpetunias »

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #110

You need to hire an attorney, one who works in business litigation (if you can find someone specializing in minority shareholder disputes, that much the better). Right now. If you're delaying on this point out of some idea of wanting to "try to fix things first" or "not wanting to be the bad guy," you're just shooting yourself in the foot and downing blood thinners to keep the wound from clotting. Working with an att…

It's interesting that when it involves a founder we're suddenly no longer considering the obvious scenario that the author is one of the many coders who is simply not good enough and has to go. And the author himself has already admitted his limited competence.

It's perfectly reasonably for the CTO to ask him to leave as a coder. In fact, setting those standards and making those decisions is what you hire a CTO for.

Unless he's been asked to surrender his equity and/or not take up any other non-technical position, everything else about being "squeezed out" is strictly speculative.

This may strictly be a matter of competence.

(Doesn't mean the author shouldn't be taking precautions, those any founder should take from the moment they involve external funding. From whatever angle or for whatever reason, the issue of ditching one of the founders will come up.)

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#163

Post by enscr »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #96
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that "co-founder" carried a lot more weight than CTO; is this not the case? My gut feeling was that, if I were in the co-founder's shoes, I'd fire the CTO immediately.

This would be dumb though, because it would tank your company.

A CTO with polarized vision would tank the company faster.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#164

Post by Hermel »

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #126
Hermel wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and foremost, involving attorneys costs everyone a lot of time and money. Unless you want exactly that (maybe out of a desire to "punish" them), it's better to just leave.

Any competent attorney will tell you that you should never litigate on principle (such as "punishing" them). If that's your only reason, many attorneys will choose not to take you on as a client right then and there. All the court can do is use money to attempt to redress your grievances, assuming you win. But that's not why you need an attorney right now. Even if you're never going to file suit, an attorney will hel…

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways:

1. Negotiations

2. Understanding the legal situation

Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders.

This might be the US way of doing things. But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#165

Post by gaius »

dchichkov wrote: post #132
marcus_holmes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree completely. I'd have a frank discussion with him and attempt to determine if this is political. If it is, fire him immediately even if there's short-term pain because the politics will f k the company anyway. If it's not political, and you agree with his assessment of your production code, then there's an R&D role that probably needs filling and that you've already proven you can do - finding profitable market…

I'd second your words about "bad coder" arguments. This argument is ridiculous, particularly if he had managed to to build a production system that is gaining traction. And did it single-handed (or in a team of two). I would disagree however about the advice to 'fire him immediately because the politics will fk the company'. The problem is, the moment there is some money on the table politics and power play starts. U…

You can be a terrible coder and build an MVP in PHP or something. Doesn't mean you can scale it, both in terms of adding new features, or in terms of increased traffic.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#166

Post by throawaycofnder »

Throwaway here.

I too (like Bluestrike2) was squeezed out of the company I co-founded. I know what it’s like. And I want to help.

In my situation, I didn't get 3-6 months notice.

There was a "difference of opinion" about the value of work I was putting into the business, and a "difference of opinion" about where the business should go strategically, and one Tuesday morning I entered a grim meeting where I was given an exit contract to consider.

It was a bit of a shock - and they kindly offered me a few days to think about it, letting me go home to cry.

How very kind of them...

...I realised the next day that it was to get me out of the building without incident - and that they'd already begun changing passwords (including my work email password) in the meeting, and continued the rest of the day.

How humiliating…

The situation you’re in sucks.

For what it's worth (and I say this sincerely), I'm so fucking sorry.

They're assholes. You don't deserve this. And the company never would have got to where it is today without your contribution - and how dare they use the foundation you built (your baby) to screw you.

Then they have the gall to act as if you’re "not good enough".

Fuck them.

You’re awesome. You’ve done some cool shit. And - as great as the project is you’re working on now - I would sincerely hope that it wasn’t going to be the crowning achievement of your lifetime. I’m absolutely certain that the best for you is yet to come.

I could tell you how good things are going to be in the future, and you probably wouldn't believe me.

I could tell you that the lessons you learn now about control, shareholdership, business politics and more will save you later when friends and colleagues are learning the lessons themselves.

But both of these are cold comfort.

Realistically things are going to get harder for a while (finances, life direction, self confidence, etc), but in a few years as these things get back on track you'll know yourself better, be doing something you love more, and will be much wiser as a result of what you're doing right now.

Now... Let's focus on the next few weeks.

Firstly, ignore the posturing and politics in this thread about whether or not the CTO overstepped his bounds. Realistically, if he has the CEO on-side, it doesn’t matter.

Feel free to get up on your high horse about this if you need to, or if it makes you feel better. Or you could wear funny hats. Or do something else equally useless.

When you’re ready to do something productive, let’s keep going.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#167

Post by throawaycofnder »

throawaycofnder wrote: post #166

Throwaway here. I too (like Bluestrike2) was squeezed out of the company I co-founded. I know what it’s like. And I want to help. In my situation, I didn't get 3-6 months notice. There was a "difference of opinion" about the value of work I was putting into the business, and a "difference of opinion" about where the business should go strategically, and one Tuesday morning I entered a grim meeting where I was given a…

What I'm going to tell you next is controversial. Take it or leave it. I'm sure other people will tell you it's wrong/immoral/stupid/a bad idea/whatever... Good for them.

I want you to start saving everything.

Save emails. Save contacts and contRacts. Save code libraries. Save workplace procedures and systems. Save lists of your clients, suppliers and resellers. Save strategy documents. Save analytics and marketing plans. Save Facebook remarketing lists.

Then put all of this stuff in a drawer, and forget about it for the next few years.

One day down the track, you're going to wish you had access to some of this stuff.

"What was that supplier/investor/advisor's phone number?", "How did we build our user base initially?", "How successful was X technique?", "What was the codebase we used?", "Who was that great client who gave us helpful feedback?" etc.

Keep it offsite, and do it in a way that won't set off alarm bells (slowly, reasonably, etc). Be very very careful. This is probably their #1 fear, and they might be keeping tabs on access logs for certain sensitive documents.

No doubt a lot of this data will be stored on your computer (laptop?) already. Back it up, and keep a backup offsite so that it's protected if you get a rude shock and are forced out at a moments notice.

The other way to access it is in the normal course of work over the next few months. If you have a legitimate reason to check X while you're doing Y, then check X on your local machine and save a backup. Over 3-6 months, you'll probably end up touching every piece of the business.

This is not about power. It's not about revenge. And it's not copyright or IP rights. (Don't be stupid and try to use it to "get them back", or to beat them at their own game, or ruin them, or whatever. You'll lose.)

This is a reference for you. A time capsule you can look back on for lessons, advice and strategy when you're building the foundation of your new life - without having to go back to square one.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#168

Post by throawaycofnder »

throawaycofnder wrote: post #167
throawaycofnder wrote: post #166

Throwaway here. I too (like Bluestrike2) was squeezed out of the company I co-founded. I know what it’s like. And I want to help. In my situation, I didn't get 3-6 months notice. There was a "difference of opinion" about the value of work I was putting into the business, and a "difference of opinion" about where the business should go strategically, and one Tuesday morning I entered a grim meeting where I was given a…

What I'm going to tell you next is controversial. Take it or leave it. I'm sure other people will tell you it's wrong/immoral/stupid/a bad idea/whatever... Good for them. I want you to start saving everything. Save emails. Save contacts and contRacts. Save code libraries. Save workplace procedures and systems. Save lists of your clients, suppliers and resellers. Save strategy documents. Save analytics and marketing p…

Now that we have that out of the way - let's talk lawyers.

Realistically, if you don't have a controlling stake, they're next-to-nothing you can do to stop "them" screwing you. All a lawyer is going to be able to do is tell you "if you do X, or let them do Y, you'll be far worse off".

As Bluestrike2 says, you might wind up winning the case, but bankrupting yourself in the process. Litigators are the only profession that provides no economic benefit to society. Other professions create things, or improve things, or build on things. Litigators divide a pie into 3 parts, and keep a slice. So the chances of walking out ahead are pretty remote.

Plus it sounds like you don't have a huge amount of cash to spend on lawyers anyway.

So keep your head screwed on. Sure, get advice so that you know where you stand. But this "lawyer up", "fight for your rights" bullshit is a road to ruin spouted by idiots.

Find a lawyer who has expertise working for people in your CTO/CEO's position. I think they're going to have seen more cases, and learned more about what works and what doesn't, than someone who has expertise protecting "the little guy" (minority shareholders, etc).

I don't know what it's like where you are, but where I'm from lawyers are required to provide a schedule of fees and a costs estimate upon request. It's nice to get an idea about the fees in advance.

Before you meet with them, send them the contract and have a brief chat about what you want from them before you sit down. The day before you meet with them, call them just to check they've read the contract. Don't let them get away with flying by the seat of their pants in your consultation. (You'd be surprised at how many lawyers do this.)

The 3 questions you want answered are:

1. What your legal obligations are, under your contract and any relevant legislation or case law, and how do you ensure you don't fuck up and accidentally screw yourself out of your equity/shareholding/vesting/whatever.

2. What legal protections you have under your contract and any relevant legislation or case law. (i.e. How might the company push you out in unpleasant ways, and what you can do to prevent this from happening.)

3. How would they recommend you get out as quickly and as profitably as possible.

Realistically, your lawyer is going to tell you "Here's a list of stupid and pretty obvious things you shouldn't do. There's not too much you can do to protect yourself, and there are plenty of things they can do to screw you totally."

For example, the CEO might be in a position where they could sell all the assets of the company to a new company, and leave you with an interest in an empty shell. Or there might be an "out" in the contract that lets them essentially kick you out for next-to-nothing. Or the CEO could "loan" the company money at high interest rates, bankrupting it, and then repossess the assets. And there might be sweet FA you can do to protect yourself from these scenarios.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#169

Post by throawaycofnder »

throawaycofnder wrote: post #167
throawaycofnder wrote: post #166

Throwaway here. I too (like Bluestrike2) was squeezed out of the company I co-founded. I know what it’s like. And I want to help. In my situation, I didn't get 3-6 months notice. There was a "difference of opinion" about the value of work I was putting into the business, and a "difference of opinion" about where the business should go strategically, and one Tuesday morning I entered a grim meeting where I was given a…

What I'm going to tell you next is controversial. Take it or leave it. I'm sure other people will tell you it's wrong/immoral/stupid/a bad idea/whatever... Good for them. I want you to start saving everything. Save emails. Save contacts and contRacts. Save code libraries. Save workplace procedures and systems. Save lists of your clients, suppliers and resellers. Save strategy documents. Save analytics and marketing p…

So if you're saying that they need you for another 3-6 months, then it might be worth pushing forward exit talks now - before you become useless and unnecessary in the business, and while they need you.

Your lawyer will be able to advise you on strategy here, and if they're cool-headed, it might be best to get them to negotiate on your behalf. (I know personally, one harsh comment or unfair criticism and I'd lose my focus in negotiations, or break down and be unable to cope. So having an experienced advocate might be worthwhile.)

How I would be playing this would be:

a) I'd explore a scenario where I stayed on in a non-tech role, without losing the equity vested.

b) I'd explore whether I could (kindly) stay on for the 3-6 months they needed in return to receiving a payout for the equity vested at an agreed amount that saw me take back the personal wealth plus an agreed amount of money for the vested equity. (This is going to hurt, and you'll feel like they paid too little while they feel they paid too much, but I don't think you should tie your equity to something illiquid that you have no control over.)

c) I'd explore plan b, paid out over instalments instead of in one lump sump, if they don't have the capacity to pay right now.

d) I'd explore plan b as a mix of equity plus cash - maximising cash.

e) I'd explore plan b, but instead of a payout I'd look to increase the vested equity in the company to an agreed amount. (If they can't get the money to pay out out now, this might be the only option - but I think it's messy and risky.)

f) If you can't get any of those, just do whatever you can to walk away with as much of the capital you've invested as you can - ideally in cash.

How did things work out for me?

I ended up with a Plan C. It worked out to be the equivalent of about 1.5 years dividends from my shareholding as we were structured differently, was already profitable and industry-leading in what it was doing. I thought I got screwed. My co-founders thought they paid too much. Whatever. All divorces are acrimonious.

Fast forward a few years, and I have a new company that makes me more money, sees me working 10-20 hours a week, and doing something I enjoy doing far more.

What's happened to my co-founders? Well, the business reached saturation point soon after I left, and is now struggling to survive. After we finally forgave each other, I caught up with my now greying, stressed, sick, tired, overworked and underpaid cofounder/former best friend and I feel sorry for him. He actually looks at my life now and envies it. :(

What happened to me at the time left me teetering on the edge of suicide. It was humiliating. It was a huge fall from grace. And I felt utterly destroyed: financially, emotionally, spiritually, and physically.

It took me 18 months to recover, 2.5 years to regain a level of confidence in who I am and what I do, and 3 years to build my new business, and 4 years to stop regretting what happened and feel happier about where I'm going than where I've been.

You sound like a smart guy - and I'm confident that your new life will be far better than the hell or uncertainty you're in right now (or the hell you may be in for another 3-6+ months).

My wish for you is that you get to leave your current situation with the best possible foundation (whatever it looks like) and you begin your new life as soon as possible.

If your future isn't in this venture, then the sooner you get started on "the next thing", the sooner you'll get there.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#170

Post by gaius »

It takes balls to say to your boss, you are damaging the company. Did you hire a CTO or a yes-man? It's time for you to transition to a new role in the company, not coding hands-on but designing new features.

If you wanted a guy to take care of the details but not the big picture, you would have hired a lead engineer NOT a CTO.

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