The problem with profitless startups
21–30 of 52 posts
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#22Remember that Priceline had a history of loss leaders. Amazon was patient in making money too. A couple million here or there is pennies if you're funding the next big thing. This turns into a way for companies to subsidize early adopters. Yes, the interface may not be perfect, and you never know what will appear in the box, but if you'll give us a go, you'll get an $8 lunch that might just be good... Sounds fair.
The biggest difference between (say) Amazon and the startups discussed in the article is that the startups in the article are aggressively local. "We deliver lunch in the Bay Area" doesn't scale to other communities as easily as "We ship books to anywhere from a giant warehouse in the middle of nowhere" does, since the former requires building up local infrastructure (meal prep, delivery, legal/regulatory compliance, etc.) for each expansion.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#23How do we know that some of these businesses are losing money? Looking at the menu of SpoonRocket that the author listed, you could make the same meal for less. I have a feeling that the profit margins are very low, but I do not think they're in the negative.
An $8 meal, they make it at $4. With one avg engineer on salary at 125K, (~10K a month), you'd have to sell 2500 lunches with a $4 profit to cover just his salary.
I'd bet they're losing money.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that's the problem, it should eventually autocorrect when the investors give up permanently and local businesses return.
That word "autocorrect" masks quite a lot of suffering on the part of local business owners who close up and lose their livelihood and investors (including pension funds, retirement accounts, etc.) which lose their money. Sure, in the long run it all works out, but in the short term there's quite a lot of turmoil.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#25Re: The problem with profitless startups
#26I never understood the working models of growing at the sole expense of investors money. Because I don't know but last time I checked capitalism and free market still is king, and they always have a history of major market correction. When something's not efficient or something's offplace, market has a tendency to correct itself, in a big, unexpected, ruthless sort of way and we've seen this again and again, but history seems to teach people nothing.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#27tl;dr the author argues that the ultra-cheap venture backed services are a problem because while they're using money from VC firms and being patient, they're driving out local businesses, and they'll ultimately fail, leaving a hole in the local service ecosystem.
They also argue that this poses a long-term potential problem for VC as well. Eventually an institutional investor wants their money back. Eventually they have to settle up and see who the Amazons are vs. the Pets.com. That forces businesses to transition towards exit in some fashion, if they move to IPO, this shift forces them to make a shift (to become profitable) which will kill some. I don't see how that's a cont…
A VC once told me that he thinks most venture funds don't really stand a chance of making money at all. The reason they have money to invest is because there's such a surplus of cash from institutional investors who need the "venture capital" checkbox. The lower-end VCs don't get the best deals and have to settle for leftovers, so their chances of getting lucky in a get-lucky business are that much lower.
At any rate, no honestly run pension fund is actually putting its capital at significant risk by tossing a few tenths of a percent at a collection of VC funds.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#28First, the VC money isn't going to cost-cutting - it's going to growth. In theory, virtualizing the business processes should lead to higher efficiency and naturally lower costs. This model has been proven out in other fields - it's the Big Box model of retail that created giants like Wal-Mart (although a better comparison would be specialist big box retail like Guitar Center). So the VC money is going to building out the business model infrastructure, not selling a sandwich cheaper than the local shops.
Second, these businesses on the edge don't have enough market share to make a massive dent in the local market - and it's ludicrous to think that they could do so by losing money on transactions at scale. By the time they pose a real threat to local business, they will be profitable. They must be, because the markets are too large to be subsidized by VC forever.
Third, a lot of the businesses that are threatened are not "mom and pop" at all. Taxis? That's a local oligarchy protected by politics. Food delivery? Ever heard of Domino's Pizza or Jimmy John's?
Fourth, these can create new opportunities for local business. I can now get food delivered to my door by one of these startups, but the food comes from excellent local restaurants (the mom and pop ideal) that otherwise could not possibly get a delivery service working profitably. They've outsourced the business model, not the food prep.
And then there's the handwringing about how the long-term professional institutional investors who run pension funds and the like might go broke on venture capital, not realizing what a tiny sliver of that market VC is - it's a diversification strategy, not a core. The biggest concern would be if a VC collapse led to a broader stock market collapse, a la the dotcom era. Not likely.
Yeah, dumb article.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#29As someone who recently accepted a job in silicon valley, I've started to become concerned that there is a bubble. I feel there are many parallels between 1999 and today. I would love to be convinced otherwise because I am concerned with job security, but I can't escape the feeling that the "music" will soon stop. At the very least I'd like to hear people's opinions on whether there is a bubble or not
It is unlikely that those who stand to profit from a bubble would acknowledge it....up until the housing market came crashing down there was a continuous stream of people on CNBC talking up the market....the same happened in the first dot com bubble, you can expect the same now. The new excuse is that even if there is a bubble it will be contained. It does seem an entire bubble economy has been created in SV where bo…
My guess is it continues. Hedge funds as a whole also perform below market but see continued investment because of the promise that they will have tremendous returns when a firm succeeds. Startups get money from the same sort of investors. People who are only investing a portion of their portfolio, chasing big returns and mostly unconcerned about losing some money along the way.
Re: The problem with profitless startups
#30Wow, this article is kind of clueless. First, the VC money isn't going to cost-cutting - it's going to growth. In theory, virtualizing the business processes should lead to higher efficiency and naturally lower costs. This model has been proven out in other fields - it's the Big Box model of retail that created giants like Wal-Mart (although a better comparison would be specialist big box retail like Guitar Center).…
The lunch that guy described is impossible to deliver for $8 in the US, and especially in SF. That business makes no sense, ever. Losing money while making a unit profit on that lunch, ok, let's see where that goes. Getting my business by selling to me below cost? I'll do business with you all day but as soon as you raise the price, I'll switch to the next startup offering me a subsidized lunch. There's nothing 'long view' about that. No vision there.
This trend, if it's as big as the article makes it seem, is way more worrying to me in a 'bubble' sense than the color.com thing.