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Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

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71–80 of 84 posts

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#71
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living is wildly different in different areas. People in NYC need to earn more money than somebody in Idaho Falls to live even close to a comparable lifestyle. A million dollars will buy you an "ok" 2 bed room apartment in Manhattan in an "ok" neighborhood, while a million dollars near Houston will buy you multiple acres with a brand new 7 thousand sq foot 6 bedroom 9 bath home on the waterfront with a guest…

OK, but imagine this situation: I have affixed a monitor with a webcam to a robot that represents "me" in an office. It is able to sit at a desk, attend meetings, etc. I work from home in some place with a lower cost of living and use the robot proxy for interaction with my peers. Should I be paid more or less than other people working in that same office, producing the same output?

Less, because those people have to live there where it's more expensive. While you live where you live where it is less expensive.

You're thinking of this as advantaging you, getting SF pay for working in Idaho Falls, but you need to think of is that salary in Idaho Falls is the "normal" base salary, everybody earns at that rate, and cost of living adjustments are paid on top of that base salary for people in expensive areas to create as equal of living conditions as possible in more expensive areas.

This is so commonly understood that nobody bothers to break it out that way except for the Federal Government pay scale. Everybody from Podunk, Nowhere gets excited when they get a job in the big city because of this pay differential on what they'd make where they live. Except the cost differential is similar and when they arrive they suddenly realize it doesn't buy them anything more.

By paying people "the same" at the base salary, your salary model would disadvantage people working and living in cities such that they could not do it and companies that need to be in cities would be unable to function.

Companies with large workforces in cheaper areas could also not pay their workers SF/NYC salaries or their costs would simply overcome their revenue or if they can manage it, they may as well have just hired in SF/NYC in the first place and realized better efficiencies of physically working together. Your robot is a poor substitute for actual face-to-face interaction and introduces lots of inefficiencies into communication.

Not all jobs for a company need to be in the expensive areas, so it would make more sense for companies to push those jobs to cheaper areas. But some jobs do need to be in expensive areas for efficiency. Cities exist because of those efficiencies. However, being a city with 5x population of Idaho Falls doesn't mean you have 5x the resources, so demand drives up the cost of goods and thus the cost of services rise and thus it simply costs more to live there.

Companies wish to continue operating, so they need people to be able to afford to live near where the company needs to be (which is dictated by the efficiencies of the city). This is reflected by pay differentials for people that need to live and work in these cities. Nobody can live in SF or NYC on Idaho Falls pay.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#72
post #39
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to get an entry-level engineering job in the Valley today? It doesn't seem like that's common at all. So if you're just starting out and particularly if you don't happen to have a boutique degree, where are you going to start at entry level as a developer? To me, it sounds like a great way to hire.

Yes, their are plenty of startups with less brand name recognition hiring. A friend of mine from a non technical background managed to get a decent PM job after finishing hackbrite. Alternatively you can get in the door of a brand name company by doing QA for a year or so.I have multiple friends that transitioned from a liberals arts degree to being developers by first starting in QA. It's totally possible. Internshi…

That's interesting; I never thought about the QA angle. Maybe you can say a little more about how that works and what companies?

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#73
post #72
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, their are plenty of startups with less brand name recognition hiring. A friend of mine from a non technical background managed to get a decent PM job after finishing hackbrite. Alternatively you can get in the door of a brand name company by doing QA for a year or so.I have multiple friends that transitioned from a liberals arts degree to being developers by first starting in QA. It's totally possible. Internshi…

That's interesting; I never thought about the QA angle. Maybe you can say a little more about how that works and what companies?

Good QA people are incredibly hard to find, especially ones that can do automated testing. One of my old managers started at Apple in QA and then transitioned over to being a developer after a year or two. I’ve seen this pattern a number of times. The potential risk is that many organizations won’t allow you to leave QA. That may not be a problem if thats what you want to do. QA can pay quite well if you are doing the right thing.

The way to play this is to go into an organization with a good brand name, work hard, focus on automation as much as possible and if they won’t help you transition over to being a developer leave after two years for a place that will. Having a good brand on your resume will open a lot of doors. Also, if you are going down this road its a good idea to build a portfolio of software on github.

Devops is also a good option to consider. It really depends on what your background is and what skills you bring to the table.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#74

I'm jealous -- I would love to telecommute from my home town in the Upper Peninsula, but it just wasn't happening when I was looking for jobs after college. I ended up moving to a bigger city just to get a job as a software engineer. Still looking for a way to get back home, though. There have been so few options, and none where I felt I'd be able to advance my career. Self employment has always been the most attract…

You could always start your own company.

I loved the upper peninsula when I visited years ago. and it seemed /dirt/ cheap, I paid $20/night for a motel. Plus any place with Cornish pasties at every stop steals my heart.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#75
Although I won't be moving to the midwest, I am rooting for this. I'm in SF because I grew up here and have a lot of family in the area. I don't live here because of the excellent salaries, because while the average software developer here earns (according to sfgate and us news best jobs) between $110,000 and $120,000 a year, the median 3br house costs 1.1 million.

It would be a great triumph if the tech industry found a way to function without needing to move every software developer internationally into a the 48 square miles of SF plus a small corridor down the peninsula.

I've read about startups in Baltimore, St. Louis. These are bustling, interesting old cities with cool architecture, walkable downtowns, great old gardens and museums, and vastly lower rents. If the tech industry could find a way to convert some of those 110K a year jobs in SF into a large number of $95k a year jobs in cincinatti or st. louis, it would have an exceptional effect on the world.

And you know, if you are paying $110k in a place where a reasonably nice 3br house can be had for $300k, I'd be a lot more receptive to worries of a worker "shortage" than if you're offering that salary in a place where a 3br house is $1.1.

So all I'm really saying here is good luck, I hope this works for everyone involved.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#77
post #46

The Valley != Access to Tech Jobs Most of the Midwest doesn't have a dying need for "The Valley". This article reads a bit like SV is the saving grace of the Midwest, If only those people had access to tech. I think there's a very healthy tech scene in many areas of the Midwest. I live in Minneapolis and there are plenty of local companies doing well with local people. There are also quite a few local resources for e…

When I graduated Purdue, 9 years ago, there was very little in the way of software jobs at least (And I got the impression that the top companeis hiring Mech E and EE students could be as selective as they wanted). I had to go to one of the coasts to get a sane offer. The only real job offer I got in Indiana was a one year contract for $30k/year in Fort Wayne, which was less than half the salary for the non-contract…

Twin Cities and Chicago areas are exceptions to the rule, when it comes to Midwest. Both have a healthy mix of old-school industrial giants, financial, retail, and new tech and bio companies. This is different from other big metros in the region like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, St. Louis, and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is another (arguably) Midwestern city that has a growing new-tech/bio industry (Google and Intel + recently, old-school Bosch Research Center + several medical-sector startups).

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#78
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living is wildly different in different areas. People in NYC need to earn more money than somebody in Idaho Falls to live even close to a comparable lifestyle. A million dollars will buy you an "ok" 2 bed room apartment in Manhattan in an "ok" neighborhood, while a million dollars near Houston will buy you multiple acres with a brand new 7 thousand sq foot 6 bedroom 9 bath home on the waterfront with a guest…

OK, but imagine this situation: I have affixed a monitor with a webcam to a robot that represents "me" in an office. It is able to sit at a desk, attend meetings, etc. I work from home in some place with a lower cost of living and use the robot proxy for interaction with my peers. Should I be paid more or less than other people working in that same office, producing the same output?

For a variety of reasons, your personal, physical presence in an industry cluster[0] is valuable. Managing a business is a coordination problem, and it's generally the case that said coordination problem is best solved by having everyone in the same office. So an employee in Silicon Valley or NYC is, on aggregate, significantly more productive than the same worker in most of the Midwest, even if their individual effort is no different.

Unfortunately, the dominant housing policy regime of restrictive single-family zoning and auto-oriented transportation, which significantly limits new housing production in the most productive areas of the US, causes high wages and growing populations to lead to lead to extraordinarily expensive, overcrowded housing.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cluster

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#80
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the house comparison is a good example - a house in Palo Alto can only be utilised in Palo Alto. A remote worker could work from anywhere and produce the same output, regardless of location. Pay levels based on location seem like a good way for companies to "save" money by providing a convenient excuse to pay someone less for the same work.

That is correct. I, living in Dallas, am willing to sell my labor in Dallas for a lower price than I am willing to sell my labor in Palo Alto. Thus, a company in Palo Alto can save money by hiring me in Dallas to do the job. There is nothing inconsistent about this.

Price should be based on the value you are providing to your clients/employer. Not your expenses.
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