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Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

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Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#61

Post by RK »

cwal37 wrote: post #18
bane wrote: post #7

This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S., but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New…

I agree with your overall point of looking in the areas around DOE labs (disclaimer: I'm at one now and worked at a different one in the past), but maybe only half-ish of them are truly in nowheresville. I would say Idaho, Los Alamos, NETL, Pacific, and probably Ames definitely are; while Oak Ridge is kind of on the bubble. This might just be my bias having grown up in the Midwest. The rest are in major metropolitan…

Los Alamos is in the middle of nowhere, but Sandia is smack in the middle of a metro area of ~1M people (Albuquerque).

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#62

Post by cwal37 »

RK wrote: post #61
cwal37 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your overall point of looking in the areas around DOE labs (disclaimer: I'm at one now and worked at a different one in the past), but maybe only half-ish of them are truly in nowheresville. I would say Idaho, Los Alamos, NETL, Pacific, and probably Ames definitely are; while Oak Ridge is kind of on the bubble. This might just be my bias having grown up in the Midwest. The rest are in major metropolitan…

Los Alamos is in the middle of nowhere, but Sandia is smack in the middle of a metro area of ~1M people (Albuquerque).

Right, sorry! I tend to forget they're not literally next to each other since they're both nuclear security labs and in the same-ish area.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#63

Post by imroot »

I don't really call this "Outsourcing." I call it smart hiring.

I have two teams -- one in Cincinnati, and one in Walnut Hills, CA. On my teams, I have a blend of about 60% onsite and 40% remote workers. I pay equally across the board, with the guys in CA getting an extra $1K/month due to the insane cost of living. I hire wherever I can find talent, and I find technology that works to bring us together as a team regardless of our location.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#64

Post by hga »

nanidin wrote: post #50
dlokshin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because demand is less. The wage is still dictated by supply and demand. The supply is probably less, but the demand for that labor is far less. The demand for an engineer in the midwest is higher than the demand for an engineer in Thailand because there are less time barriers, language barriers, etc. A house in Palo Alto, CA costs more than the exact same house in Dexter, Michigan. If they were made of the exact sam…

I don't think the house comparison is a good example - a house in Palo Alto can only be utilised in Palo Alto. A remote worker could work from anywhere and produce the same output, regardless of location. Pay levels based on location seem like a good way for companies to "save" money by providing a convenient excuse to pay someone less for the same work.

When you factor in the cost of living it's not an "excuse".

If, after the obligatory expenses like housing and food, the employee has more after tax dollars to spend on whatever he wants and in many ways a higher quality of living (better housing, better control over crime although that's looking to change WRT California, etc.), is he getting cheated as you imply?

I've lived in the Boston area and the D.C. area for a dozen years each, and have now moved back to my smallish home town in SW Missouri ... the differences are staggering.

Look at imroot's policies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7568217

Officially the same pay, but the people in California get an extra 1K/month for their higher living expenses. Heck, the Federal government does this for civil servant compensation.

Flip side: if the company is nasty, it'll tie up it's outside of California employees with non-competes---although that could be a bit tricky, given that it would get no support in the California state courts. How would you establish jurisdiction in the employee's home state?

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#65

Post by bane »

nanidin wrote: post #37
bane wrote: post #7

This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S., but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New…

I don't see how two people producing the same output deserve different salaries based on where they live - why should geographic location dictate my salary relative to my peers?

Cost of living is wildly different in different areas. People in NYC need to earn more money than somebody in Idaho Falls to live even close to a comparable lifestyle. A million dollars will buy you an "ok" 2 bed room apartment in Manhattan in an "ok" neighborhood, while a million dollars near Houston will buy you multiple acres with a brand new 7 thousand sq foot 6 bedroom 9 bath home on the waterfront with a guest house and a swimming pool next to a pro-level 18 hole golf course.

If you don't understand it further, feel free to take the midwest salary and try and live in San Francisco or NYC.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#66

Post by opendais »

ahlatimer wrote: post #36
bane wrote: post #7

This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S., but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New…

Judging by the recruiter spam I get, it's not entirely true that SV companies are not looking outside SV for employees -- it's just that they expect them to move to SF to work for their company. About 90% of the recruiter spam I get is from companies based in SF, but most of them are not open to remote workers.

Ya. And at least the ones I get expect me to want to jump ship for the same salary I'm paid now...

I don't think they think things through very well when it comes to labor relations in general.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#67

Post by nanidin »

bane wrote: post #65
nanidin wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how two people producing the same output deserve different salaries based on where they live - why should geographic location dictate my salary relative to my peers?

Cost of living is wildly different in different areas. People in NYC need to earn more money than somebody in Idaho Falls to live even close to a comparable lifestyle. A million dollars will buy you an "ok" 2 bed room apartment in Manhattan in an "ok" neighborhood, while a million dollars near Houston will buy you multiple acres with a brand new 7 thousand sq foot 6 bedroom 9 bath home on the waterfront with a guest…

OK, but imagine this situation: I have affixed a monitor with a webcam to a robot that represents "me" in an office. It is able to sit at a desk, attend meetings, etc. I work from home in some place with a lower cost of living and use the robot proxy for interaction with my peers. Should I be paid more or less than other people working in that same office, producing the same output?

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#68

Post by jakestl »

Dewie wrote: post #35
jakestl wrote: post #2

As a Midwesterner, I am slightly put off by the use of the term "outsourcing" in the title. Considering the term wasn't used in the article I feel it carries negative connotation. Maybe I am reading too deeply into this...

So what do you think about foreign developers who work for American companies (that are outsourced muscle)? That they are inferior? I feel like I'm being hostile now, but that is what seems to must follow, if you even accept the term outsourcing . I think outsourcing is either motivated by 1. cost, which does not necessarily have anything to do with quality, might just be that the cost of living is very different, an…

Outsourcing usually means hiring cheap, low-quality third-party labor and firing/not hiring skilled, trained full-time employees. Whether this is from another country or not is unrelated.

The situation described in the article has nothing to do with outsourcing, but building a remote team, both foreign and domestic.

Using the term "outsourcing" does a disservice to those employees. Since the Midwest was mentioned specifically, I had a similar reaction to the one you had for my comment.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#69

Post by btrautsc »

bane wrote: post #7

This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S., but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New…

Our company (Ambition, YC'w14) has thrived with this logic. Its really part of our culture & our philosophy for being a "cockroach" startup (aka stay alive long enough to build a great business).

Our HQ is in Chattanooga, TN. Many of our engineers interned or worked with Oak Ridge Nat'l lab while at university.

The majority of our employees are not from Chattanooga, but ended up choosing the southeast or midwest over SV - we constantly hear from amazing engineers/ designers/ sales people in Nashville or Atlanta (both ~ 90 miles away), as well as Memphis, Knoxville, Birmingham, research triangle (NC), and of course SV, NYC, Chicago, etc.

In our opinion, great people live all over the place for a multitude of great reasons. In our case, Chattanooga had A. excellent quality of life & B. reasonable cost of living. We still spend a lot of time in the Bay Area and have built an incredible network, but not every 10x engineer wants to live in SoMa.

Re: Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest

#70

Post by pasbesoin »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
pasbesoin wrote: post #5

This is sort of my dream. When, while on vacation, I saw that the state had run fiber up to the local state park (a gorgeous, national park sized state park), I asked whether private interests were also attached. I have since heard that there were plans to upgrade backbone service to the local town 13 miles away. Supposedly, an insurance company was going to host a call center there -- although that part of the story…

Which state park? I'm guessing Utah?

It's in the same general area as the OP: Porcupine Mountains Wilderness State Park, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Approximately 15 miles of Lake Superior shoreline, extending inward 3 - 5 miles, in the eastern part of the park over a series of parallel ridges that are remant uplift of the old Lake Superior syncline.

One road around the boundary, and another up to a scenic overlook. The rest of the park is accessed by trails.

If you like hiking and camping, or want to spring for one of the better cabin rentals, it's a gorgeous, peaceful place.

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