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Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

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Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#121

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

m52go wrote: post #81
dmix wrote: post #13

Amazon is building a $600 million datacenter for the CIA. The CIA did all of the bad things listed in Dropbox article as directed by Bush and Condoleezza, and they are still actively trying to cover up torture. I've never heard anyone here not using EC2 over it? The tech scenes pitchfork mobs are wildly inconsistent. I have a feeling this one hit a nerve because Condoleezza Rice is famously hated across the internet…

For the record, I'm not asking for Condi to step down or be removed. It would be hypocritical of me to do so--I openly criticized people on HN for asking Eich to step down. From a pure business perspective: I just think it's a bonehead move on Dropbox's part, as other people could have brought similar value with less reputational damage. Views on gay marriage have NOTHING to do with running Mozilla. Views on data sec…

why do you care about seeming hypocritical? do what you feel is right. in the words of Emerson: " A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood. "

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#122

Post by mrpopo »

pavelrub wrote: post #110
koevet wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we all ignorant? http://marthiemombergblog.com/2014/03/30/i-have-one-child-th...

Yes. Drawing conclusions based on isolated events, without attempting to understand the reality or the context in which those things happen, and without hearing the other side of the story, is a good indicator of ignorance.

About this particular event's "other side of the story", see [0].

"[Read Zuaiter] did not try to seize the gun of a soldier as Israelis claim, an eyewitness at the scene said Tuesday. The Israeli army stated after the killing that the ''the terrorist'' (= the judge) attacked a soldier with an iron rod while crying ''Alalahu akbar''."

Also, the article shows that this kind of incident is not so 'isolated' as you say.

Disclaimer: I work with young people who left Israel.

[0] http://the-pessoptimist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/israel-kills-...

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#123

Post by nb4hnp »

gretful wrote: post #39

I wonder how many people here will feel the same about, for instance, Rahm in Chicago, or others of Obama's circle of friends, when they begin moving into private business? Will they be held to the same standards?

I would certainly hope that any filthy politician would be held accountable for their actions, regardless of which administration they served under.

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#124

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

yid wrote: post #44
dmix wrote: post #13

Amazon is building a $600 million datacenter for the CIA. The CIA did all of the bad things listed in Dropbox article as directed by Bush and Condoleezza, and they are still actively trying to cover up torture. I've never heard anyone here not using EC2 over it? The tech scenes pitchfork mobs are wildly inconsistent. I have a feeling this one hit a nerve because Condoleezza Rice is famously hated across the internet…

> Condoleezza Rice is famously hated across the internet and in the press (especially on the Daily Show) Her actions are hated; she's been on the Daily Show at least once and had a pretty decent conversation with Jon Stewart.

I can guarantee that poster has never watched the daily show and just assumes it's liberal propaganda.

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#126

Post by iambother »

dmix wrote: post #13

Amazon is building a $600 million datacenter for the CIA. The CIA did all of the bad things listed in Dropbox article as directed by Bush and Condoleezza, and they are still actively trying to cover up torture. I've never heard anyone here not using EC2 over it? The tech scenes pitchfork mobs are wildly inconsistent. I have a feeling this one hit a nerve because Condoleezza Rice is famously hated across the internet…

>>>>The tech scenes pitchfork mobs are wildly inconsistent.

Just because the mob is all pitchfork'ed and ready doesn't mean it isn't its own victim to the trap of considering the world black and white.

There really are no absolutes. We're all using machines built for us by slaves. But at least we are communicating on how this enslavement can end. Would you end the show just because you think the last 15 minutes are 'a forgone conclusion'? Hang in here for this argument, and you may discover that the world is not black and white.

Ms. Rice is hated because of the things she allowed to occur as a part of her lifestyle. She is a cog in what many consider to be a highly destructive, death machine.

High-moral consistency is one thing; on the other end of this conversation is a father, laying dying in the ditch, watching the bits of their kids fade into the dirt. Condaleeze Rice is responsible for a fuck of a lot of that.

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#127

Post by shmerl »

> almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation

Stopped reading since there, since it sounds like a usual blind rant and not anything to do with reality or reason. The moment conflict in Israel kicks in, many otherwise reasonable people lose common sense (it can go in either direction about the sides of the conflict IMHO). Not sure why it's so really.

Otherwise valid criticism is discredited by such cliche phrases which don't suit someone like Knuth.

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#129

Post by splat »

hindsightbias wrote: post #17
NotOscarWilde wrote: post #11

I think it's important to ask not only whether somebody is a good ideological representative for a company, but also whether ousting them does us any good. The parties on both sides of the Rice/Dropbox debate have good arguments: * Ms. Rice has been a very important representative of a US administration that caused a lot of people to die in Iraq and elsewhere; * but she is not the only one in the government of that d…

> solves nothing Sometimes, the best solution for bad behavior is making it have consequences. > promise before elections By that logic, Bush and Rice met their promises. They didn't say they wouldn't invade anyone, they said they wouldn't do nation building.

Bush actually campaigned on a "humble foreign policy" in the 2000 election. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_presidential_cam...

Re: Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)

#130

Post by bm1362 »

dmix wrote: post #82
sheri wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your point is what? That demonstrating outrage here is in some way invalid since similar outrage was not demonstrated in every other similar situation? Do I have no moral authority to speak up in this situation if I have not before? Maybe we should boycott Amazon. Not boycotting Dropbox because we didn't do the same for Amazon doesn't get us anywhere.

The system Condaleeza represents is still active and is heavily entrenched. This campaign may be a good start, but its going to take much more than that to change anything -- and that requires a strong moral consistency than extends well beyond participating in an occasional mob. Amazon is actively supporting infrastructure to an agency that supports torture. Condaleeza isn't even in power any more. It's not that you…

Does this logic apply to the workers who maintain the physical infrastructure for the CIA? The Coke guys who refill soda machines? The internet providers?

Where do you draw the line? A government agency leverages services to further it's agenda- should those businesses take a moral position?

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