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Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

slate.com

31–40 of 52 posts

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#31
post #29

Sorry, but this article is total bullshit. Here's why: They list four possible responses to your child being bullied, including standing up to the bully, ignoring and avoiding the bully, involving the parents of the bully, or involving the teacher/school. They state that these are all likely to be ineffective. That said, their problem with kids standing up to bullies isn't that it's ineffective, though they paint it…

Whatever else you may have to say about how this is "total bullshit", this article isn't the standard half-educated reporter writing whatever comes in their head for The Guardian. Alan Kazdin has more scholar hits in his field than anyone commenting here has for theirs. You're right that there's not a lot of data in the article that backs up his point, but you'll be wrong if you follow that logic to the conclusion yo…

I stand by what I wrote. His position may be backed by reams of data and rigorous scientific study, but this article is bullshit, for three reasons:

1. None of that data is presented.

2. He leverages mockery to preemptively discredit people with real-world experience that disagrees with his position, despite offering no evidence, experience, or data of his own. Come on, linking to a standard response that someone who disagrees with him can use to come up with their own formulaic response? Clear anti-intellectual mockery, and hardly the mark of a rigorous scholar.

3. His logical process as presented in this article makes absolutely no sense, particularly with regard to why telling your kid to stand up for themselves is a bad idea.

To repeat an analogy I used in another comment: this is like saying that you shouldn't advise someone whose website just got hacked to secure their app, because they got hacked because they didn't follow proper security protocol, and are therefore unlikely to follow your advice.

To accept the article as a well-written and well-argued piece on the proper response to bullying, just because the author is a leading scholar in his field is just a bizarre kind of reverse ad hominem.

Edit: reworded a few things

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because they anticipated people countering their hollow and completely unfounded advice with real-world experience to the contrary, we should discount anyone with an opinion based on fact and personal knowledge of the subject.

I was just pointing out the irony, not trying to prove you wrong.

I assumed that you quoted a point from the article: Anecdotal experience isn't proof of statistical relatedness.

Edit: And about the GP's claim that the author's being incompetent and writing unfounded advice. Check their jobs at the end of the article. (They might be incompetent and/or wrong, but they will certainly have lots of relevant data in published papers!)

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#33
post #13

The time-honored assumption is that if your child cleans a bully's clock once...he'll leave your child alone. It would be nice if life worked this way...but it usually doesn't. This is inconsistent with my personal experience. I would like to know how the author drew this conclusion. Granted I might be a special case. For my size (small) I have always been quite strong/athletic. For my general demeanor (sweet/calm) I…

>> I'd like to see [the author's] data. I admit mine is anecdotal. I bet his is too.

Sigh, just Google his name: www.yale.edu/psychology/FacInfo/Kazdin.html

Edit: I am also stupid. :-) Just check the end of the article.

"Alan E. Kazdin, who was president of the American Psychological Association in 2008, is John M. Musser professor of psychology and child psychiatry at Yale University and director of Yale's Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. Carlo Rotella is director of American studies at Boston College."

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever else you may have to say about how this is "total bullshit", this article isn't the standard half-educated reporter writing whatever comes in their head for The Guardian. Alan Kazdin has more scholar hits in his field than anyone commenting here has for theirs. You're right that there's not a lot of data in the article that backs up his point, but you'll be wrong if you follow that logic to the conclusion yo…

I stand by what I wrote. His position may be backed by reams of data and rigorous scientific study, but this article is bullshit, for three reasons: 1. None of that data is presented. 2. He leverages mockery to preemptively discredit people with real-world experience that disagrees with his position, despite offering no evidence, experience, or data of his own. Come on, linking to a standard response that someone who…

You: "No evidence or data is presented to back up any of the points."

Did you even read the article? The authors link to six websites that each describe research on the subject of bullying. In addition, he specifically cites comprehensive review books and papers.

You, on the other hand, cite nothing but anecdote and "analogy".

A simple PubMed search on the term "bullying" gives pages of results on the topic, and I daresay they mostly are consistent with the advice given by the authors of this paper, and not yours.

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#35
post #33
post #13

The time-honored assumption is that if your child cleans a bully's clock once...he'll leave your child alone. It would be nice if life worked this way...but it usually doesn't. This is inconsistent with my personal experience. I would like to know how the author drew this conclusion. Granted I might be a special case. For my size (small) I have always been quite strong/athletic. For my general demeanor (sweet/calm) I…

>> I'd like to see [the author's] data. I admit mine is anecdotal. I bet his is too. Sigh, just Google his name: www.yale.edu/psychology/FacInfo/Kazdin.html Edit: I am also stupid. :-) Just check the end of the article. "Alan E. Kazdin, who was president of the American Psychological Association in 2008, is John M. Musser professor of psychology and child psychiatry at Yale University and director of Yale's Parenting…

He has written over 600 papers and 40 books. Perhaps his data about the efficacy of standing up to bullies is somewhere buried in that writing. But it's not obvious at all that it is given your Google search. I'm not particularly interested in his background or qualifications. I want to see the actual data that substantiates his thesis quoted above.

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand by what I wrote. His position may be backed by reams of data and rigorous scientific study, but this article is bullshit, for three reasons: 1. None of that data is presented. 2. He leverages mockery to preemptively discredit people with real-world experience that disagrees with his position, despite offering no evidence, experience, or data of his own. Come on, linking to a standard response that someone who…

You: "No evidence or data is presented to back up any of the points." Did you even read the article? The authors link to six websites that each describe research on the subject of bullying. In addition, he specifically cites comprehensive review books and papers. You, on the other hand, cite nothing but anecdote and "analogy". A simple PubMed search on the term "bullying" gives pages of results on the topic, and I da…

1. Linking to six websites on the general subject of bullying is hardly a well-reasoned presentation of research and evidence to support an argument. In addition, several of these websites specifically contradict the advice of the author and encourage kids to stand up for themselves in the face of bullying.

2. The average reader is unlikely to conduct a PubMed search for research and scholarly works related to the subject of bullying.

3. I was specifically referring to the lack of evidence to back up the position that standing up to bullies is rarely effective, not everything in the article. You're right that this wasn't clear. My mistake.

You seem to have missed completely that I'm not primarily disagreeing with his position (though I do), but rather with the shallow presentation of that position.

EDIT: removed a mistaken reference to the Guardian

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#37
post #32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just pointing out the irony, not trying to prove you wrong.

I assumed that you quoted a point from the article: Anecdotal experience isn't proof of statistical relatedness. Edit: And about the GP's claim that the author's being incompetent and writing unfounded advice. Check their jobs at the end of the article. (They might be incompetent and/or wrong, but they will certainly have lots of relevant data in published papers!)

I never said anything about them being incompetent. And publishing data in other unrelated (and unreferenced) publications doesn't make an argument unfounded. They didn't support this claim in this article, either directly or indirectly by clearly linking to relevant studies or research.

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#38
post #35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'd like to see [the author's] data. I admit mine is anecdotal. I bet his is too. Sigh, just Google his name: www.yale.edu/psychology/FacInfo/Kazdin.html Edit: I am also stupid. :-) Just check the end of the article. "Alan E. Kazdin, who was president of the American Psychological Association in 2008, is John M. Musser professor of psychology and child psychiatry at Yale University and director of Yale's Parenting…

He has written over 600 papers and 40 books. Perhaps his data about the efficacy of standing up to bullies is somewhere buried in that writing. But it's not obvious at all that it is given your Google search. I'm not particularly interested in his background or qualifications. I want to see the actual data that substantiates his thesis quoted above.

He he. You have a point, he might be lying about his subject... :-)

(I have no idea, but as someone noted above -- there is no one writing here that has better credentials in any subject than the author has in this.)

Edit: I might add that I voted you up, for the humor. In the first comment you "bet" that the author just has anecdotal evidence -- and then you don't retract when you see he has decades of research in the subject!

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because criminalizing the behavior of children just starting to understand social dynamics isn't a way out of proportion response.

So...free pass then. Right, carry on. You say to the thug, in no uncertain terms, "The next time you do XYZ, the consequences will be a removal from school." And, yes, have the police deal with it because they are actually equipped for such activity, unlike your typical teacher. ...and to be clear, I'm talking about instances of actual assault, and not the vast bulk of things in the category "bullying".

The police don't have the authority to remove a kid from school without jailing them. The school administration is empowered to provide sanctions and have experience and training in dealing with children. It's a very different game than the police who deal with adults, using Tasers.

Re: Bullies can be stopped, but it takes a village

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You: "No evidence or data is presented to back up any of the points." Did you even read the article? The authors link to six websites that each describe research on the subject of bullying. In addition, he specifically cites comprehensive review books and papers. You, on the other hand, cite nothing but anecdote and "analogy". A simple PubMed search on the term "bullying" gives pages of results on the topic, and I da…

1. Linking to six websites on the general subject of bullying is hardly a well-reasoned presentation of research and evidence to support an argument. In addition, several of these websites specifically contradict the advice of the author and encourage kids to stand up for themselves in the face of bullying. 2. The average reader is unlikely to conduct a PubMed search for research and scholarly works related to the su…

The article didn't appear in The Guardian. You misread my comment.

I don't understand where you think this argument is going to take you. Whatever critiques you may have of the way Kazdin has boiled down the huge volumes of research on this topic for a Slate article, he's not a reporter. He's the president of the American Psychological Association, a professor at Yale, and the director of the Yale Parenting Center; he's also written a well-regarded book on the subject.

You may have a valid argument about what he's saying about bullying, but you are totally clouding it by attacking his credibility. He has much more credibility on this subject than you do.

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