Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

violinist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 94 posts

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#41

Post by na85 »

fleitz wrote: post #18
na85 wrote: post #13

tl;dr: Study seeks to determine if Old Master violins actually sound "better", media reports misleading headlines (shocker), musicians are angryface. I remember when this study was first concluded and reported on. The CBC had a woman who participated in the study (maybe this very woman) on the program and it was so extremely obvious that her professional pride was wounded, and she really wanted to make herself feel b…

'I have no reason to doubt her; she's a professional violinist.' You know that claiming to be a professional violinist is an appeal to authority rather than a logical argument, right? That said the study does seem to be massively misreported.

>You know that claiming to be a professional violinist is an appeal to authority rather than a logical argument, right?

Am I on reddit or something? You know that starting a statement with "you know that..." sounds pretentious as fuck, right?

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#42

Post by noonespecial »

abalone wrote: post #32

I would love to see a study like this done with vinyl vs. digital. 1. Put some vinyl-loving DJs in a hotel room. 2. To factor out identifying pops & scratches, pre-record a vinyl song onto digital. Record it several times and use each digital recording only once. 3. Cover their eyes and randomly switch between vinyl & digital. See if they can tell the difference.

To factor out identifying pops & scratches, pre-record a vinyl song onto digital...

This would simply be a digital reproduction of a vinyl recording. (Something I quite like BTW). Vinyl is a "thing" because the process plays a part in creating that sound people love and not just reproducing it.

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#43

Post by rquantz »

rasz_pl wrote: post #34
GhotiFish wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pick best does not mean pick oldest, news articles said study was identification, study subject says study was preference, study says study was preference. How you could possible reach the grand parents takeaway is seriously concerning. explain.

Yes. Im sure this is why she herself uses 200 year old violin instead of the modern one. > for the last five years, a mid-1800s Italian. Whole article is a result of authors cognitive dissonance. I dont see much difference between her and people arguing for $1K speaker cables and later failing to distinguish them from coat hangars.

Her mid-1800s Italian has completely different characteristics from a 17th century Italian. A string player spends months or years trying many instruments before deciding on one. I've never known a professional musician who cares whether they're playing on a modern or an older instrument, they care whether they have the right instrument for them. You have no idea what you're talking about. Please just stop.

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#44

Post by thaumasiotes »

sukuriant wrote: post #23
ricardobeat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe rare instruments like those are always kept in pristine conditions, and nowhere it is mentioned that the new ones had adjustments done, you can assume they all were received in 'normal playing condition' from their owners.

It's a reasonable assumption to make that the new ones had adjustments done. Even larger was the unchanged strings. I could easily imagine that the older ones, since they're not allowed to be modified in any way, had older strings than the new ones. That alone could produce a huge difference.

That's a difference, but it's a difference with obvious large implications for using the things in performance as well as experiments. As such, it's hard to see how it's a problem in the experimental design; if you're not allowed to adjust the Stradivarius while it's in your possession, maybe a newer model really is the right choice for a concert?

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#45

Post by sjwright »

eric_h wrote: post #28
na85 wrote: post #13

tl;dr: Study seeks to determine if Old Master violins actually sound "better", media reports misleading headlines (shocker), musicians are angryface. I remember when this study was first concluded and reported on. The CBC had a woman who participated in the study (maybe this very woman) on the program and it was so extremely obvious that her professional pride was wounded, and she really wanted to make herself feel b…

> actually very effective at showing that masterwork violins do not necessarily sound better than modern violins Really, it's only effective at showing that an unadjusted violin with strings of an unknown age doesn't necessarily sound better than a younger violin with younger strings, that has been recently adjusted...

Really, it's only effective at showing how violins compare when being played by blind musicians in hotel rooms, while being observed by researchers. But at some point you have to stop finding caveats and find some evidence for the contrary position.

What is the contrary position? That older violins have some kind of superior magical design that can't be replicated? Has anyone validated the claims for why these old violins are supposed to be better?

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#46

Post by thaumasiotes »

fleitz wrote: post #18
na85 wrote: post #13

tl;dr: Study seeks to determine if Old Master violins actually sound "better", media reports misleading headlines (shocker), musicians are angryface. I remember when this study was first concluded and reported on. The CBC had a woman who participated in the study (maybe this very woman) on the program and it was so extremely obvious that her professional pride was wounded, and she really wanted to make herself feel b…

'I have no reason to doubt her; she's a professional violinist.' You know that claiming to be a professional violinist is an appeal to authority rather than a logical argument, right? That said the study does seem to be massively misreported.

"Appeal to authority" is a shorthand form. The thing people object to is more formally known as "appeal to false authority" (think "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV").

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#47

Post by na85 »

sjwright wrote: post #45
eric_h wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actually very effective at showing that masterwork violins do not necessarily sound better than modern violins Really, it's only effective at showing that an unadjusted violin with strings of an unknown age doesn't necessarily sound better than a younger violin with younger strings, that has been recently adjusted...

Really, it's only effective at showing how violins compare when being played by blind musicians in hotel rooms, while being observed by researchers. But at some point you have to stop finding caveats and find some evidence for the contrary position. What is the contrary position? That older violins have some kind of superior magical design that can't be replicated? Has anyone validated the claims for why these old vi…

>What is the contrary position? That older violins have some kind of superior magical design that can't be replicated?

Pretty much.

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#48

Post by dragonwriter »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #46
fleitz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'I have no reason to doubt her; she's a professional violinist.' You know that claiming to be a professional violinist is an appeal to authority rather than a logical argument, right? That said the study does seem to be massively misreported.

"Appeal to authority" is a shorthand form. The thing people object to is more formally known as "appeal to false authority" (think "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV").

Improper appeals to authority are not limited to appeals to false authority; appeal to authority to dismiss evidence are also fallacious.

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#49

Post by marcosdumay »

sjwright wrote: post #45
eric_h wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actually very effective at showing that masterwork violins do not necessarily sound better than modern violins Really, it's only effective at showing that an unadjusted violin with strings of an unknown age doesn't necessarily sound better than a younger violin with younger strings, that has been recently adjusted...

Really, it's only effective at showing how violins compare when being played by blind musicians in hotel rooms, while being observed by researchers. But at some point you have to stop finding caveats and find some evidence for the contrary position. What is the contrary position? That older violins have some kind of superior magical design that can't be replicated? Has anyone validated the claims for why these old vi…

Well, I don't subscribe to the idea that old violins are better than anything we can make... but you can't simply compare an adjusted violin to an unadjusted one.

Re: What Really Happened in that Double-Blind Violin Sound Test

#50

Post by sukuriant »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #44
sukuriant wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable assumption to make that the new ones had adjustments done. Even larger was the unchanged strings. I could easily imagine that the older ones, since they're not allowed to be modified in any way, had older strings than the new ones. That alone could produce a huge difference.

That's a difference, but it's a difference with obvious large implications for using the things in performance as well as experiments. As such, it's hard to see how it's a problem in the experimental design; if you're not allowed to adjust the Stradivarius while it's in your possession, maybe a newer model really is the right choice for a concert?

That is fair; but, my assumption in this situation is that if the musician owned the instrument themselves, they would have been allowed to tune it. Not being allowed to change details may have been a way for the benefactors of the instruments to keep them from being harmed
Post reply on HN