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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#251
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which basics are you referring to?

Housing. Health insurance. Second cars (because women now need to work). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&t=15m40s also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&t=9m15s

> Housing

Again, not if you're willing to live in a typical 1930 house (with one bathroom for the whole family, a small kitchen, no family room, one bedroom for the parents, one bedroom for ALL the kids, no air conditioning, no garage, no laundry room).

The average price of a house is so much more today in large part because people want a lot more square footage.

> Health insurance.

Today's standards for health coverage are much higher than they were in 1930. Life expectancy for American men was 58 years back then. Blue Cross didn't exist. Jimmy Carter was the first US President born in a hospital (in 1924).

If you're willing to lower your standards dramatically, and accept medical treatment that's as sucky as it was in 1930, it's a lot cheaper than what we would today consider to be acceptable.

> Second cars (because women now need to work).

They don't, though. If you're willing to live the low quality of life that was prevalent in 1930, you can do it with a single-earner household.

In fact, why does your household even need one car? In 1930, most American households got by with zero.

Re: A nation of slaves

#252
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing. Health insurance. Second cars (because women now need to work). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&t=15m40s also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&t=9m15s

> Housing Again, not if you're willing to live in a typical 1930 house (with one bathroom for the whole family, a small kitchen, no family room, one bedroom for the parents, one bedroom for ALL the kids, no air conditioning, no garage, no laundry room). The average price of a house is so much more today in large part because people want a lot more square footage. > Health insurance. Today's standards for health cover…

Maybe 1930 but certainly not 1970. Typical middle class families are worse off than 1970 as that video illustrates.

But even the reduction in work to live the 1930s lifestyle you describe is no where near commensurate with per capita GDP growth over the same period. I think that is the real thesis statement: Most people have captured only a small fraction of increases in productivity.

Re: A nation of slaves

#253
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, this makes things a lot clearer. > You and I are so utterly dependent on this source of energy that our brains can't fully comprehend the consequences of choosing the alternative. Depends on the alternative. If the alternative is a much lower standard of living, you're right, there's no way you're going to convince a significant number of people to choose that alternative. (You and I are both providing evidence o…

I totally agree with what you've said, although I personally think that in terms of long-term misery that fossil fuels have the potential to be just as damaging as slavery.

> I personally think that in terms of long-term misery that fossil fuels have the potential to be just as damaging as slavery.

To me that says that you are either drastically overestimating the potential misery due to fossil fuels or drastically underestimating the actual misery that was caused by slavery.

Re: A nation of slaves

#254
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with what you've said, although I personally think that in terms of long-term misery that fossil fuels have the potential to be just as damaging as slavery.

> I personally think that in terms of long-term misery that fossil fuels have the potential to be just as damaging as slavery. To me that says that you are either drastically overestimating the potential misery due to fossil fuels or drastically underestimating the actual misery that was caused by slavery.

perhaps you could cite some sources that would calibrate those of us that agree with the GP's mindset.

Re: A nation of slaves

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have no choice but to work or be discarded, then, when the value you can provide via work is less than that required to maintain your life, you have no choice but to attempt to indenture yourself. And failing that, you're truly, completely fucked. Work or be discarded? Really? Most people have, you know, other people in their lives. Hell, 20% of the country at any given time is children, and they don't work…

Are you aware of the history of the U.S. before 1865?

Are you aware of the history of the US after 1868? Ever wanted to understand why the first section of the fourteenth amendment says "Subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States?

Subject, in this case, means subordinate. The newly-minted dual citizens (of federal and state citizenship) of 1868 and beyond are no longer "the people" that the government serves. They are the subordinates (slaves) of an authority no longer accountable to "The People", as there are technically none left post-1868.

If you think I'm exaggerating, I invite you to read SCOTUSblog sometime, and you'll eventually find someone (often a SCOTUS justice) mentioning how the first ten amendments of the bill of rights have now been "filtered" through the fourteenth, to see what stands and what doesn't. The only one yet to be filtered through the fourteenth is the third amendment (quartering troops). Thanks to DC V. Heller, the only one to escape unscathed is the second.

here's[1] a list of interesting cases directly affected by the 14th amendment.

[1] http://americanhistory.about.com/od/supremecourtcases/tp/Key...

Re: A nation of slaves

#256
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally think that in terms of long-term misery that fossil fuels have the potential to be just as damaging as slavery. To me that says that you are either drastically overestimating the potential misery due to fossil fuels or drastically underestimating the actual misery that was caused by slavery.

perhaps you could cite some sources that would calibrate those of us that agree with the GP's mindset.

What sort of data would you like to see? I'm having a hard time even getting the potential harm from fossil fuels to within a few orders of magnitude of the actual harm caused by slavery.

Perhaps you could start by answering this question: do you think I am drastically underestimating the potential harm from fossil fuels, or drastically overestimating the actual harm that was done by slavery? That will help me to "calibrate" where you are coming from. (And if it's the first of the two, as I suspect, can you give some specifics about why?)

Re: A nation of slaves

#257
post #227
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For "how do you define "paid enough"?", yes, I did mean they weren't paid enough for the value they create, because of the price distortions I talked about that occur during the bargaining (price setting) process. For "Yes, by automating their processes so that a single worker is much more productive and therefore can command higher wages. Not by paying people higher wages for doing the same work they were doing befo…

> yes, I did mean they weren't paid enough for the value they create, because of the price distortions I talked about that occur during the bargaining (price setting) process The problem with this hypothesis is that there's no way of proving it. And the claim becomes questionable anyway if the company's response when labor is no longer available at the low wage they were paying is to automate rather than to pay highe…

But any method for helping people become more productive is going to require significant effort and enforcement.

Possibly, but I'm not sure we should take that at face value. There's another Planet Money story[0] about the efficacy of just giving money to people. If you accept that reducing poverty lets people become more productive by applying more of their available effort towards actions that do more than just sustain life, I think this at least puts enough question to that assertion to make it something that needs qualification.

One possible way to help is to use technology to reduce the need for large corporations, by making more and more things doable by smaller and smaller groups of people.

How does that account for the increased efficiencies gained from being large, e.g. bulk logistics? Walmart, split into 5,000 smaller individual stores, would likely not be able to match the prices of Walmart the mega-corporation, even if only due to bulk shipping and purchasing efficiencies (and leverage) gained by the single larger version.

Great discussion though, +1's all the way up the stack for you and mrow84.

[0]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/25/240590433/what-hap...

Re: A nation of slaves

#258
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yes, I did mean they weren't paid enough for the value they create, because of the price distortions I talked about that occur during the bargaining (price setting) process The problem with this hypothesis is that there's no way of proving it. And the claim becomes questionable anyway if the company's response when labor is no longer available at the low wage they were paying is to automate rather than to pay highe…

But any method for helping people become more productive is going to require significant effort and enforcement. Possibly, but I'm not sure we should take that at face value. There's another Planet Money story[0] about the efficacy of just giving money to people. If you accept that reducing poverty lets people become more productive by applying more of their available effort towards actions that do more than just sus…

> There's another Planet Money story[0] about the efficacy of just giving money to people.

It does look like many of these people used the money to increase their productivity, yes (for example, by starting businesses). But from what I can see, GiveDirectly has only been in existence since 2010. I'll be interested to see what their numbers look like ten years from now, if they're still around. (My prediction, for what it's worth: (1) the fraction of people receiving their money who actually become more productive will go down (more people trying to game the system); (2) their overhead will go up (more money being spent on trying to prevent people from gaming the system).) It's definitely an experiment worth trying.

> How does that account for the increased efficiencies gained from being large, e.g. bulk logistics?

I said "more and more things", not "all things". Yes, there are probably some areas in which economies of scale are large enough that large corporations are more efficient on net than smaller ones. But I suspect there are fewer such areas than most people believe, and I think technology can make there be fewer still.

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