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Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 94 posts

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#31
post #5

Utter bullocks. Would we entertain this idea that the tolerant must tolerate intolerance if Prop 8 was about race, rather than gender? Of course not. Nobody pretends that we must not speak ill of racists; certainly nobody pretends that speaking ill of racists makes you just as bad as racists. It is apparent to me that we as a society still have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the appreciation of the importa…

That was 6 years ago. The majority of Californians supported Prop 8 at that time. Even Barack Obama opposed gay marriage back then. Why aren't we raising the pitchforks against Obama? People change. This is a witch hunt from an action that someone did a long time ago. He didn't even do anything wrong. He just supported a mainstream proposition. He is on the wrong side of history, at that time, sure. But it doesn't de…

>People change.

What did Eich do which made you think he reconsidered his position that same sex marriages should be annulled and banned?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#33
Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code. There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimination against opponents of gay marriage is morally justified, just as discrimination against other kinds of bigotry is.

In fact, even if discrimination against opponents of gay marriage were not morally justified on its own merits, it would be at least as morally justified as the discrimination against gays that Brendan Eich once wanted to see enshrined into law.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#34
post #5

Utter bullocks. Would we entertain this idea that the tolerant must tolerate intolerance if Prop 8 was about race, rather than gender? Of course not. Nobody pretends that we must not speak ill of racists; certainly nobody pretends that speaking ill of racists makes you just as bad as racists. It is apparent to me that we as a society still have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the appreciation of the importa…

That was 6 years ago. The majority of Californians supported Prop 8 at that time. Even Barack Obama opposed gay marriage back then. Why aren't we raising the pitchforks against Obama? People change. This is a witch hunt from an action that someone did a long time ago. He didn't even do anything wrong. He just supported a mainstream proposition. He is on the wrong side of history, at that time, sure. But it doesn't de…

What evidence, besides the popular vote (52%? Wow, that's a big majority /sarcasm), that Prop8 was popular? How about factoring in the ton of money the Utah Mormons threw behind Proposition 8?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#35
post #5

Utter bullocks. Would we entertain this idea that the tolerant must tolerate intolerance if Prop 8 was about race, rather than gender? Of course not. Nobody pretends that we must not speak ill of racists; certainly nobody pretends that speaking ill of racists makes you just as bad as racists. It is apparent to me that we as a society still have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the appreciation of the importa…

That was 6 years ago. The majority of Californians supported Prop 8 at that time. Even Barack Obama opposed gay marriage back then. Why aren't we raising the pitchforks against Obama? People change. This is a witch hunt from an action that someone did a long time ago. He didn't even do anything wrong. He just supported a mainstream proposition. He is on the wrong side of history, at that time, sure. But it doesn't de…

You're right, people change. And when people change, they can be forgiven.

Frankly all it would have taken to squash this controversy is an apology. I am confident that a quick "People change, I've changed. I understand now that people deserve the same rights and equal protection of the law, regardless of what gender they fancy." would have put this all to rest.

An apology is what we would expect from a CEO that was found to have been racist in the past. It is not unreasonable to expect it now. If he hasn't actually changed, therefore making an honest apology possible, then your "People change." is rather irrelevant, isn't it?

Edit: And downvotes are not censoring. Everyone can see and read your post even when you are downvoted, so quit your bellyaching.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing that needs to be done, is the public needs to learn & adjust its behavior. This is a sociopolitical problem, and I think it needs to be fixed by those means. Either through adjusting norms of socially accepted behavior (i.e. don't crucify someone for what they did 10 years ago) or through strong leadership from political figures/groups.

Except for the fact that a large chunk of the support for _California's_ Prop8 came from outside the state (specifically: Mormon Utah), especially in the form of money. How do you counter that "sociopolitically"? That aside, I can agree that someone shouldn't be crucified for a bad decision that is well in the past, especially if they've learned the error of their ways.

Ballot strategy is a different topic; I was specifically addressing how a grassroots movement (e.g. the online lynch of Eich) would have to be tackled.

Ballot strategy is more about the organized manipulation of swing voters, which is almost certainly what Utah did, so values & beliefs become less important than FUD & counter-FUD.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#37
Brendan Eich has the freedom to support what he wants to support. The public (and Mozilla employees) have the freedom to respond how they wish to respond. It is up to Mozilla to choose what to do with that public response and now they've chosen.

Too often this "what about freedom of speech?" argument fails to apply the same logic to both parties. People were unhappy that someone with this controversial belief was elevated to a leadership role – why should Mozilla employees have stayed quiet?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#40
post #33

Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code . There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimi…

It seems that for half the people on HN the conversation immediately stops with "this is about civil rights, therefore we should not tolerate Eich's intolerance".

But marriage itself is not a civil right. It is a pact between two people, a type of contract that we have inherited through a long series of civilizations, to which the modern state associates a number of privileges.

Right off the bat, if we consider any of these privileges a matter of equality before the law, then it is the institution of marriage itself that is discriminatory. Why should an unmarried person pay more taxes than a married person for the same income? Why cannot they name a friend instead of a spouse as a dependent for health insurance? And so on. How is it acceptable to discriminate against people who are not in a romantic relationship? Why are we tolerating this obvious injustice?

The answer is that, traditionally, these have not been seen as rights, but as privileges. The state grants these privileges to married people, at a cost for the community, because these is believed to be a public interest in the promotion of marriage. If that is the case, it is entirely legitimate to debate whether this public interest exists both in the case of heterosexual and homosexual couples, and furthermore, whether it still applies to anyone at all in modern society. A lot of the traditional justifications for public support of marriage were based on strongly differentiated gender roles, and it should be clear that they are no longer applicable.

As for new rationales of public interest, none have been advanced, other than "discrimination" - which, again, would be an argument for abolishing marriage, not for extending it.

In any case, this is a matter on which there is ample room for debate amongst well-intentioned and rational people. It is not right to nip the discussion in the bud by framing anyone who holds a different opinion as a bigot.

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