Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#941

Post by clavalle » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #877

clavalle wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't want to live in a society where people have to fear for their jobs or a public mob action because they espoused an unpopular opinion. And I don't want to live in a society where we tacitly accept discrimination because it is labeled as political opinion. There is a huge difference between politics and science. It is a terrible analogy. Scientific hypothesis, by definition, can be tested. If someone is wrong,…

Fundamentally, law/politics are addressing an empirical question: how do we maximize the well-being of the population. I understand that this is a much more fuzzy and difficult question than those addressed by the hard sciences, but it is empirical, and we do see progress. Would anyone seriously argue that our political system, despite all its flaws, is not better now than when we had slavery, only white male landown…

There are still people out there arguing that slavery might be an ok system. That landowners or taxpayers should be the only ones with the right to vote. That the slaughter of other peoples is the natural way of things and has some benefit and that workers should have zero protections.

All of these things, to you and me, seem obviously like backward movement in terms of general well-being.

We don't hear about these extreme views because they are abhorrent to most people and the people that hold them get ridiculed. Can you not see someone losing their job is they publicly support a return to slavery? Would that be repression of that idea?

I would argue, no, its not. The discourse has reached a societal consensus that slavery is bad. Why? Because it violates some very fundamental rights of human beings. I think we have reached that threshold with the rights of people with various modes of sexual choice.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#942

Post by dalke » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 1:41 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #916

dalke wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/10/speech-and-consequences/ describes it well: > Speech is designed to invoke private and social consequences, whether the speech is "venti mocha no whip, please," or "I love you," or "fuck off." The private and social consequences of your speech — whether they come from a barista, or your spouse, or people online, or people at whom you shout on the street — represent the free speech an…

Exercising Freedom of Speech and Association shouldn't open one up to trial by public opinion - we did this once before, McCarthyism and the blacklist in the 50's - I'd rather not see us ever return to an era where there are bogymen lurking in the corners. As much as I strongly disagree with the Prop 8 folks, I think resorting to trying them in the court of public opinion is fundamentally wrong.

Could you tell me how 'trial by public opinion' in this case is different than a call for a boycott or picketing? That is, I assume that you think people should have a right to boycott and picket. Those are well protected free speech rights in the US.

McCarthyism and the blacklist involved decades of government pressure, including passing various laws against Communists at both state and national levels. The blacklist specifically started after various people were cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to testify to the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

That's hardly the same as a few organizations calling for a boycott of Firefox and a few people threatening to quit their jobs at or stop volunteering for Mozilla, is it?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#943

Post by thumbtackthief » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 1:54 PM UTC

drdeca wrote: post #870

thumbtackthief wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He could have at least honestly said that he wouldn't donate to such causes again. In the current climate, that would just be a foolish waste of money anyway.

Because, of course, a lie of omission* can't really be considered a lie at all! Of course, it all depends what we mean by lie. In my experience this tends to vary from person to person. Personally, I do tend to lie of omission* much more willingly than not of omission, though I am not really convinced that it is any more moral.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying. When he was asked if he would donate more money to these causes, a savvy person would have thought to himself, "You know, I've already said how I feel about the issue at hand. However, clearly my donations are causing some very bad press for the company I'm supposed to lead, so it would be unwise as a leader to repeat that action however I personally feel," and honestly answered, "No, I'm not going to donate to those causes anymore despite whatever my personal viewpoints are." No lies.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#944

Post by viggity » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 1:57 PM UTC

mpalmer wrote: post #597

viggity wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was against prop 8, it was stupid, but people act like it was going to throw members of the LGBT in prison or death camps or something.

Not sure if you're a member of the LGBT community or not, but it sounds like your argument here is that because the reactions of others against Prop 8 were stronger than your own, they were invalid. It's not a very tenable position to take. Do you really believe the outcry over putting minorities in prison would parallel that of Prop 8?

No, I don't think they're invalid, I just think such strong visceral reactions are counterproductive. Prop 8 supporters and/or fence sitters are much less likely to have an open mind when someone is screaming at them that they're a bigot.

Prop 8 supporters are wrong. Not Evil.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#945

Post by zimpenfish » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 1:58 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #825

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Yeah, and here's a third thing: Prop 8 support is mainstream TODAY! Sure, maybe it's extremely unpopular among the hackernews crowd (including myself) but let's not forget that Prop 8 support is hardly fringe. Prop 8 actually passed! In California!

It passed with 52% 6 years ago with an allegedly confusing ballot paper. You can't extrapolate from that to what might happen if you repeated the vote today.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#946

Post by incongruity » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 2:09 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #876

incongruity wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't paint all Christians with a broad brush. I, for one, support gay marriage, as do many others. Just say'n. On the other hand, I also think it'd be completely valid to say that the government shouldn't be in the 'marriage' business at all (gay or straight) and it should only handle contracts -- aka civil unions. One could then parse "marriage" to be something reserved for whatever church/belief system/pers…

>Please don't paint all Christians with a broad brush. I'm not sure how I gave you the impression that I was doing so. I didn't say "Christians speak of 'civil unions'", I said "Christians THAT speak of civil unions." I agree that the government shouldn't be in the 'marriage' business. I'd be OK with the government calling all marriages 'civil unions' for legal/tax purposes. That would be fair and impartial. Unfortun…

In fairness, I did misread what you wrote, just as you've said here, so my apologies.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#947

Post by xaa » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 2:16 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #941

xaa wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, law/politics are addressing an empirical question: how do we maximize the well-being of the population. I understand that this is a much more fuzzy and difficult question than those addressed by the hard sciences, but it is empirical, and we do see progress. Would anyone seriously argue that our political system, despite all its flaws, is not better now than when we had slavery, only white male landown…

There are still people out there arguing that slavery might be an ok system. That landowners or taxpayers should be the only ones with the right to vote. That the slaughter of other peoples is the natural way of things and has some benefit and that workers should have zero protections. All of these things, to you and me, seem obviously like backward movement in terms of general well-being. We don't hear about these e…

The appropriate response to someone who is advocating an idea that has been proven wrong, from flat-earthers, to Holocaust deniers, to slavery advocates, is not to ostracize or fire them (unless their job directly relates to the subject that they're mistaken about), but simply to either a) ignore their wrong opinion, or b) gently explain why they are wrong.

The trouble with using "societal consensus" to determine which views should be repressed is that sometimes the consensus is wrong. We cannot know a priori whether the majority or minority is right, so we need to protect all viewpoints, even if it means some wrong ones will persist a little longer. It's ok; eventually they will die off -- two generations from now, a anti-gay-marriage person will be almost as rare as a slavery advocate is today.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#948

Post by blindhippo » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 2:40 PM UTC

incongruity wrote: post #836

blindhippo wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Marriage" IS a civil contract. This is the entire point of the institution. And considering the Government is the embodiment of and the centralized authority for our society, it very much should be at the center of marriage. A "marriage" is a multifaceted social institution that has civil/economic implications (first and foremost) and cultural implications as varied as the number of people on the planet. To state th…

>"Marriage" IS a civil contract. This is the entire point of the institution. I think the fairest way to characterize it is that it is a term that means multiple things to different groups, much as you said... However, while it may not be your view, many religions view the institution of marriage as being much more than just a civil contract as you have by saying "that is the entire point of the institution." >That a…

"Instead, the argument is most easily made, IMHO, that inasmuch as it's solely a civil matter, irrespective of religious matters, then gay marriage is a simple matter of equality under the law. What churches do with their marriage rituals is up to them and is a non factor for the state"

Yes, exactly.

But arguing that a Government marriage isn't a "marriage" is a subjective and value laden position. Marriage is a civil union, they are the same thing as far as the law is concerned. This should always be the case - there is zero ethical ground to argue for a seperation of the terms. In so doing, you create a class system based around gender discrimination, something that is CLEARLY prohibited in nearly every bill of rights, charter of rights and freedoms or whatever document your society uses.

If the Catholic church doesn't want to support gay marriage, fine, don't support it. But do NOT inject that belief system into the civic government and attempt to control who can and cannot be "married".

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#949

Post by pdabbadabba » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:01 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #945

pdabbadabba wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and here's a third thing: Prop 8 support is mainstream TODAY! Sure, maybe it's extremely unpopular among the hackernews crowd (including myself) but let's not forget that Prop 8 support is hardly fringe. Prop 8 actually passed! In California!

It passed with 52% 6 years ago with an allegedly confusing ballot paper. You can't extrapolate from that to what might happen if you repeated the vote today.

I'm not saying it would easily pass again if a vote were held today. All I'm saying this establishes is that opposition to gay marriage is not, in the community at large, a fringe view.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#950

Post by notdonspaulding » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:05 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #669

xaa wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a problem with the very idea that a mostly apolitical organization like Mozilla should have a sweeping political/social/cultural alignment. If Eich were opposed to net neutrality, or against open internet standards, etc, those would be damning beliefs for someone in the Mozilla CEO spot. Gay rights, however, have nothing whatsoever to do with Mozilla. (I agree with you that Hobby Lobby would fire a pro-gay-rig…

free speech Which includes the right of others to criticize your speech. If I get up on a soapbox and preach something you don't agree with, so you get up on a soapbox of your own and preach your disagreement, I am not being persecuted or denied my freedom. Nor am I being persecuted or denied my freedom if your arguments convince a majority of people to disagree with or choose not to associate with me. This is, ironi…

> This is, ironically, a fundamentally conservative position

Isn't it much more a libertarian position? Christopher Hitchens was a vociferous supporter of 1st Amendment rights, but you'd hardly call him a conservative.