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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#231
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It would have been a perfectly applicable argument against abolishing slavery." It would have been wrong, though; slavery is an abuse of power to force people who could otherwise be very productive members of society to do relatively low-value tasks. I'm pretty sure most historians agree that slavery was either not a net economic win, or on its way to not being an economic win, by the time it was abolished. You then…

The objective of basic income is not to increase everyone's wealth, but to increase overall quality of life. Restaurants wouldn't disappear, but it would be a bit more expensive. Also, I suppose restaurants which treat their personal badly would quickly disappear. (You can say that's wishful thinking, but the lever effect would be quite effective against those). If you really love your job, and that's everything for…

I'm not saying the point is to make people more wealthy... I'm saying, the society must be wealthy enough to afford it. The food comes from somewhere. The clean water comes from somewhere. Wealth must exist to be redistributed.

Frankly, "look at all the wonderful things that people will do when they're freed from having to do the things they are doing today" is the scariest thing about it. I'm a programmer. A pretty decent one. The exact sort of surplus-generator that this scheme is predicated on. I go to work and I enjoy my job, but let's be honest, if I could choose how I spent my time, it is not what I would do. I would do something fun and personally interesting, like my outliner (read: "yet another f'ing text editor"), or one of my video game ideas.

This is MURDER to the basic income idea. It only works if enough of us choose to keep working away on things we don't really want to do, and there's a real tension between "a living wage"... that is, by definition enough to "live" on without a job... and something less than that, which is hardly basic income.

How many people are advocating for a basic income because they really think it's just, and how many people are just itching to use it as a way of not having to work anymore (but use the high-minded wealth redistribution as a cover for advocacy)? Even on HN, I rather suspect there's more of the former than we'd like, more people dreaming about how they could easily live frugally if they could not work at all... and we're the workaholics of the world if ever there were any, we crazy programmers. If this is put to a vote, how many millions of people would be just voting to never have to work again? We're not that rich that we can take that yet.

The exact reason why we can't all just do what we want, today, is that "what we want" doesn't add enough value to society on its own for us to be able to afford it. If we could live in a glorious wonderland where we just did what we wanted and we all came out collectively wealthy in the end, we wouldn't have to try to create some "basic income" idea, we could just do it right now... but we can't. Our desires don't overlap the needs of the world well enough. That's true even here in the programming world, and if anything in the entire spectrum of work would work like that, it's our world, with open source and feasible free collaboration between thousands on single products. I can't see how to make the numbers add up... and that is what we have to do if we're going to make this work, not rhapsodize about how wonderful it all could be in Utopia if only we got together and wished hard enough.

Re: A nation of slaves

#232
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your history is just as flawed as your understanding of work, value and progress (in other words, you've been brainwashed). "Hard work" has always been a domain reserved exclusively for the slaves. The "virtue" of hard work is just a shallow manipulation tactic devised by those in power. None of this has changed today. What IS changing, however, is that as knowledge becomes more readily available, fewer and fewer peo…

> Your history is just as flawed as your understanding of work, value and progress (in other words, you've been brainwashed). "Hard work" has always been a domain reserved exclusively for the slaves. Haha, to wake up and see that is really entertaining. You're a guy who has made money in IT and you think everyone can live the same way as you. You don't realize you are living in a small bubble that does not apply to 9…

Take a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SuGRgdJA_c.

We will see an increase in automation for jobs that we didn't expect to be so. The speed of this transformation depends on our creative and technical ability.

If you think that work defines you, read up about the Puritans in America. They had an extreme motto that 100% of your waking life must be allocated to work. You could say they are the only religious that had a fear that someone around them was having a good time.

Re: A nation of slaves

#233
post #112

The discussion here ( http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra... ) which is linked from the original post is, imo, more interesting and thought provoking. I think most people can immediately identify with the idea of "working" 40 hours while really only doing 15 hours of hard work and 25 hours of paper pushing and procrastinating. Maybe not in your current job but almost certainly in some job you…

> I know I have been lucky enough to have a manager that was not offended if I finished all of my work early and left

A problem with most knowledge-domain jobs is that the work is never done.

There are always new tasks incoming and other tasks parked pending further information, so there's no opportunity for for employees to say 'I'm finished'.

In that scenario the only way the employee can escape is to say 'I have met my assigned hours'.

Re: A nation of slaves

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your history is just as flawed as your understanding of work, value and progress (in other words, you've been brainwashed). "Hard work" has always been a domain reserved exclusively for the slaves. Haha, to wake up and see that is really entertaining. You're a guy who has made money in IT and you think everyone can live the same way as you. You don't realize you are living in a small bubble that does not apply to 9…

Take a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SuGRgdJA_c . We will see an increase in automation for jobs that we didn't expect to be so. The speed of this transformation depends on our creative and technical ability. If you think that work defines you, read up about the Puritans in America. They had an extreme motto that 100% of your waking life must be allocated to work. You could say they are the only religious…

> If you think that work defines you [...]

I don't, and I've never implied that.

> We will see an increase in automation for jobs that we didn't expect to be so.

We've seen increases in automation for hundreds of years, yet there was never a depletion of jobs for people. There's more jobs now that there has ever been before (not talking about short time scale here). Industry automation has led to the creation of the expansion of the Services industry. And there will still be tons of professions where you can't automate stuff - at best you can improve people's work using computing aids, make them work more efficiently, but at some point of the supply chain you still need human action. For the services industry, there's also the bias that most people want to deal with other people and not with computers, so automation will face cultural limits as well in some areas. I'm not worried.

Re: A nation of slaves

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete Give three examples. Just graduated doctors get paid while they're doing further study and specialisation, ditto for lawyers and doctoral students mostly get paid, albeit very badly.

My wife spent 8 unpaid years in education (4 years first degree, 2 year LLB, 1 year mandatory post-grad, 1 year devilling to be an Advocate) - with a 2 year trainee period before the devilling. That was 8 years unpaid, 2 years low pay.

So there was a four year unnecessary mistake degree/degree as consumption not investment, right? One can get an Ll.B. in three years in the UK. Does mandatory postgrad actually mean mandatory or is it just a way of throwing out all other applicants?

Re: A nation of slaves

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife spent 8 unpaid years in education (4 years first degree, 2 year LLB, 1 year mandatory post-grad, 1 year devilling to be an Advocate) - with a 2 year trainee period before the devilling. That was 8 years unpaid, 2 years low pay.

So there was a four year unnecessary mistake degree/degree as consumption not investment, right? One can get an Ll.B. in three years in the UK. Does mandatory postgrad actually mean mandatory or is it just a way of throwing out all other applicants?

Yes, but I'm not in England, and first degrees are 4 years here (for an Hons).

Getting a first degree and then an LLB is the more traditional route to qualifying as a solicitor and indeed the government department where she trained had it as a requirement - they only looked at trainees that had two first degrees.

Mind you, in reality the first degree was a mistake at the time but when she did learn how the legal system actually works (not written down anywhere, of course) having two degrees was regarded as a very good thing and more "respectable" than doing it as a first degree (can't think of a better term). It used to be pretty common - and was frankly a class thing.

Re: A nation of slaves

#237
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why patents ought to be property in the same sense that land or leases are property, and the govt. ought to be able to use eminent domain on them. Pay Mr. Myne a lot for his contribution to society, but then make sure that even the least-well-off can take advantage of this newfound material wealth without exploitation.

Patents are property which is automatically taken by eminent domain when the patent term expires.

Patents are time-limited, government granted monopolies. Why confuse things with complicated and (often intentionally) misleading metaphors about property?

Re: A nation of slaves

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there was a four year unnecessary mistake degree/degree as consumption not investment, right? One can get an Ll.B. in three years in the UK. Does mandatory postgrad actually mean mandatory or is it just a way of throwing out all other applicants?

Yes, but I'm not in England, and first degrees are 4 years here (for an Hons). Getting a first degree and then an LLB is the more traditional route to qualifying as a solicitor and indeed the government department where she trained had it as a requirement - they only looked at trainees that had two first degrees. Mind you, in reality the first degree was a mistake at the time but when she did learn how the legal syst…

Are you in Scotland? Solicitors haven't been unambiguously upper class until fairly recently, being a barrister has always been respectable but as far as the upper reaches of society were concerned a solicitor was a kind of clerk.

The two first degrees requirement is nauseatingly classist, almost as disgusting a waste of life as the US system of legal or medical education.

Re: A nation of slaves

#239
post #213
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I thought that my questioning whether you were "suggesting that by focusing on wealth creation for ourselves, we improve their chances for wealth creation" clarified it. I was talking about improving the property of "ability to create wealth" for people who are under-served by the current system. This can include a range of things, like better access to healthcare and improved nutrition, as well as schemes to…

> I was talking about improving the property of "ability to create wealth" for people who are under-served by the current system. Ok, cool, we're in agreement.

Hey... and thank you, pdonis, for typing out the arguments I was making in shorthand notation. I salute your stamina and patience. :)

Re: A nation of slaves

#240
post #202
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it is misguided? You "break the chains of economic mobility" by providing people with enough wealth and time to allow self-improvement; if you withhold that wealth and time by dictating terms from the powerful side of an economic relationship then that absolutely is significant. You state "all this focus on economic inequality is misguided" very brazenly, but what evidence do you have that the two ar…

> those things make you significantly more employable It's interesting that you use the word "employable" instead of the more general term "capable of creating wealth". Someone who thinks of themselves primarily as an employee is always going to be less wealthy than someone who thinks of themselves primarily as a wealth creator. That's because having employees is not necessary for wealth creation, but wealth creation…

"How much capturable wealth can I create?"
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