Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#691

Post by notdonspaulding » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:07 PM UTC

ahuth wrote: post #424

nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

Holding an unpopular opinion that is all about increasing fairness and equality (racial equality, feminism, gay rights, etc.) is completely different than holding one that is about decreasing fairness and equality. We cannot compare Eich's position of denying a freedom to some people to those of the people who stood for racial equality and feminism.

AFAIK, Eich donated $1000 to an organization that put the following amendment into the CA constitution:

    "Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

That's not "denying a freedom", that's defining a population who will receive certain benefits. It's a normal part of democracy. Just like when a government body defines "poverty line" to mean $XXX income, for the purposes of excluding the (very real, legal and financial) benefit from some of the population, we don't call it denying "rich people's freedom" to food stamps.

Now, whether we should distribute food stamps or whether there should be benefits for married couples is another argument, but merely expressing an opinion on the definition is certainly not the same as denying someone an essential liberty.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#692

Post by eevee » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:08 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #531

Crito wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobodies' right to have different viewpoints is being taken away. Nobodies' right to donate to political causes is being taken away. The only people in this entire story that were/are trying to take away the rights of others were the people who pushed for Prop 8. The right to support legislation like Prop 8 remains intact. The right to not be criticized by others for doing so has never existed in the first place. The…

I think you're dismissing what has happened too lightly. The real issue here is mob mentality, and you're underestimating the ways in which it can be dangerous and insidious. People aren't taking this seriously because in this case they disagree with Eich's opinion, so they feel it's all okay. They're letting that blind them. What if Eich actually had the "right" opinion? And this is hypothetical at this point--I'm n…

Slavery seems a poor example, since the people with the "wrong" opinion were already rich and powerful, and the people with the "right" one were... well, slaves. A large part of this Eich fiasco has been rejection of giving power to someone who's already used it to "wrong" ends.

What are you proposing? That we shouldn't object to injustices, on the off chance we're wrong and too many people agree with us?

We can all only do what we think is best. Eich thought he was making the world a better place by trying to block gay marriage. It seems the world disagrees.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#693

Post by victorhooi » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:10 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #432

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"sanitized to the extreme" "Hold a view that isn't mainstream" We're not talking about slightly controversial views, 'colorful' language, or a 'racy' past here, we're talking about out-and-out homophobia, wanting people to be treated as lesser humans simply because of who they love. Please, that is a LONG way from being 'sanitized to the extreme'.

Personally I think your characterization is hyperbole. There are a lot of rational reasons to oppose gay marriage (if you allow one their irrational premises). Opposing the state recognizing gay marriage is far from "treating people as lesser humans".

Err, did you actually read Prop 8 legislation?

This was never about "treating people as lesser humans", despite the cawing hyperbole from the pro-homosexual-marriage faction...

This was basically a semantic debate.

Marriage, for most of recorded history, was defined as one thing.

There's a new style of relationship that's arisen in modern times, and that group wants to extend the definition of marriage to cover that as well.

Heck, in many countries, you don't even need a marriage, leg alone a civil union - simply being in a de-facto relationship (i.e. living together) will give you the same privileges (tax, medical etc.)

It was never about privileges (government's can't grant rights), but just about ideologies.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#694

Post by eevee » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:12 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #60

phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

It speaks a lot to his integrity that he didn't. Would you rather have a CEO who says one thing in public and then goes and does another thing surreptitiously, or one who stands up for his beliefs even when they're unpopular?

He didn't stand up for his beliefs. He dodged all questions about them, hid behind Indonesia (?!), professed his love of inclusion and free expression, and expressed zero regret for having donated.

If he'd at least come out and said "yes, I oppose gay marriage, but I have no intention of involving that with Mozilla" then I would still not be thrilled but I would respect him more. As it stands, I know he won't talk about what he believes publicly, but he will merrily support it privately.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#695

Post by victorhooi » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:13 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #259

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

He had the opportunity to clarify which of these views he held. He chose to step down and leave us to speculate instead.

Well, actually, he comes across as the bigger person.

He made a very public post saying, I'm happy to discuss my views - reach out to me and I'm happy to do it in private.

The alternate would have either been a public spectacle, or farce - sorry, but the real world isn't quite like 4chan, and adults are able to sort things out without resorting to baying mobs.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#696

Post by eevee » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:15 PM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #639

Crito wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobodies' right to have different viewpoints is being taken away. Nobodies' right to donate to political causes is being taken away. The only people in this entire story that were/are trying to take away the rights of others were the people who pushed for Prop 8. The right to support legislation like Prop 8 remains intact. The right to not be criticized by others for doing so has never existed in the first place. The…

Would everyone please use "privilege" and not "right"? The legal benefits of a government recognized marriage are privileges, not rights. Government can grant privileges not rights. I understand the demand for equal treatment doesn't change though.

Marriage is both legal and social, and the two are heavily intertwined (hence the religious objections). The recognition itself is, arguably, a right. The argument is then that the government should respect the right, not "grant" it.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#697

Post by spikels » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:19 PM UTC

parfe wrote: post #603

spikels wrote: post #337

Also in 2008 "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage." - Barack Obama

Barack Obama's full quote: "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them." Candidate Obama opposed prop 8 in 2008 and strongly supported civil uni…

Sounds more like a politician trying to have it both ways. Prop 8 had nothing to do with civil unions and said almost exactly what 2008 Obama said he believed. Then as the polls changed so did his "beliefs". Just politicians being politicians.

Another great example of this behavior is Hillary Clinton who as of 2013 supports same sex marriage but back who 2000 said:

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman."

So obviously everyone against Eich as CEO of Mozilla will be against Hillary for President. Right?

Maybe be we should just ignore people's personal views when it comes to their employment. Especially when those views have nothing at all to do with your job as in Eich's case (not the case with Obama or Hillary).

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#698

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:20 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #657

return0 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe i have to say it, but donating to a cause, no matter how misguided, is meant to effect the public opinion in a certain way through certain channels. Asking for his job, his head or his property because of his opinions is bullying [mob rule is a better term], not civil discourse!

Proposition 8 was not a campaign to change the political views of people. It had but one purpose, and that purpose was to declare a subset of the population legally unequal to everyone else.

[deleted]

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#699

Post by xaa » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:20 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #471

xaa wrote: post #431

My father-in-law is a high-level official in the "Alliance Defending Freedom", which is essentially the conservative counterpart to the ACLU, providing legal advice to conservative causes. For years, he's been telling me about the "gay liberal agenda", which, to him, was not just about promoting gay rights, but also about silencing any freedom of speech advocating opposing viewpoints. I always pooh-poohed him and gen…

Free speech doesn't mean no consequences for your speech -- it means the government cannot interfere with your speech (within reason). When you make political speech it is necessarily public not a privately held opinion. He made a political donation showing that he supported a law that curtailed a group of people's natural Right. That donation was used to try and affect public policy. That is not some theory he holds…

Let me put it a different way, since the term "free speech" admittedly has many different connotations.

My day job is as a scientist. In science, individual researchers put forth many different ideas, some right, some wrong. Over time, we come to a consensus on which ideas are right and wrong, and the right ideas are kept and the wrong ideas are dropped.

However, we don't blackball people who had the wrong ideas: on the contrary, we want to encourage diverse ideas and opinions because it is only through the conflict of these ideas that truth emerges.

I don't want to live in a society where people have to fear for their jobs or a public mob action because they espoused an unpopular opinion. I disagree with Eich's opinion today, but tomorrow I could be in the minority. Yes, the wrong ideas can be harmful, but in my opinion if we have an open marketplace of ideas, rather than the "chilling effects" of political correctness (or religion, or any other force that says that there are unspeakable ideas), the truth will eventually out.

Case in point: gay marriage itself. A few years ago it was a radical idea, now it's just a matter of time before it becomes legal nationwide in the US. Ironically, the only reason there was enough political force to oust Eich is because his viewpoints are now in the minority.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#700

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:23 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #657

return0 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe i have to say it, but donating to a cause, no matter how misguided, is meant to effect the public opinion in a certain way through certain channels. Asking for his job, his head or his property because of his opinions is bullying [mob rule is a better term], not civil discourse!

Proposition 8 was not a campaign to change the political views of people. It had but one purpose, and that purpose was to declare a subset of the population legally unequal to everyone else.

[deleted]