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Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#681

Post by rmrfrmrf »

Touche wrote: post #343
arrrg wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curb stomp? Rub it in their face? What are you talking about? Eich never said that he was wrong. That’s his prerogative – he can have that opinion – but I’m not sure why anyone would forgive someone who isn’t even asking for forgiveness. I’m really all for forgiving mistakes and being graceful. There is no reason to rub someone’s past mistakes in their face when they already admitted to making a mistake. Humans screw…

Ask yourself this. What is the victory here? Is gay marriage, or equality in general, now going in a different direction because Eich was forced to resign? Can you come up with any positive effect of this controversy? If the answer is no, and I believe it is, then I don't think you can call any of this graceful.

It's not about gay marriage; it's about Mozilla. And yes, I do think Mozilla is in a better place now that Eich is gone.

Donating $1000 to support a movement that undermines human equality is incredibly out of line with Mozilla's views. From my perspective, that's about a month's rent or a mortgage payment; he must care about the issue a lot to donate that much of his own money. His interview non-apologies certainly didn't help the issue.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#682

Post by notdonspaulding »

vesinisa wrote: post #607
filmgirlcw wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a longer response, but I'll try to condense it down. I understand what you're saying, and as a supporter of free speech (which includes unpopular speech), I generally agree with your point. Still, I can't quite see the parallels between the two scenarios. This isn't a situation where he's sticking his neck out and weathering flack of negative personal repercussions to achieve a point, at least, not yet. If Bren…

Indeed, Brendan has actually gone to extreme lengths to not use his right to freedom of speech. Just look at all this "I prefer not to talk about my beliefs"[1][2]. With the CNET piece, the reporter was very kind, open and professional with him. He handed Eich the forum to come out with his views on a silver plate lined with silk. But Brendan chose not to use it, instead going for the "my private opinions as CEO are…

> He handed Eich the forum to come out with his views on a silver plate lined with silk.

Can you envision any scenario where he would be able to express his views that wouldn't have angered the mob even more, without modifying his views to be those of the mob?

> It's not about freedom of speech, but actually holding you accountable for what you say, which is a great thing.

For this, pg's "What You Can't Say" essay cuts both ways:

"The statements that make people mad are the ones they worry might be believed. I suspect the statements that make people maddest are those they worry might be true."

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#683

Post by Spooky23 »

eropple wrote: post #510
Spooky23 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a religious view for many. For someone who belongs to a religious community, publicly renouncing canon has serious impacts on you and your family's social standing. Many people are able to balance their personal beliefs against their professional obligations. Is a defense attorney who defends a rapist at trial assumed to not be capable of working with women? People should be judged by actions, not thought.…

But he is being judged by his actions, because his actions suck. His actions like donating a grand to these jerks, like donating money to other jerks like Pat "our promiscuous homosexuals appear literally Hell-bent on Satanism and suicide" Buchanan. He has a history of badness and it's catching up to him. Though, honestly, the Pat Buchanan donation bothers me even more than the Prop 8 one; donating money to Pat Bucha…

Says you.

I would rather work with and disagree with someone who has the integrity to stand by what they believe.

I work in a group with folks of Indian decent from different religious backgrounds (Islamic, Hindu, Catholic), an Orthodox Jew, a bunch of Irish catholic types (including myself), and a person from Nigeria. We are literally from many corners of the earth, with different backgrounds, traditions, etc. If we delved into politics, we'd probably find a lot of contested ground.

Part of democracy and free society is that we need to get past those differences. If you believe that gay marriage is against your moral code, you have a right to vote your conscience. Likewise, if you campaign for LGBT rights, you have that same right, and I would make the same argument 20 years ago for people similarly mistreated for taking that stand.

I'm Catholic, and contribute regularly to a church congregation. I'm also a public officer in a secular government, whose policies are often not consistent with the church. Should I be booted out of my job (or contemplate "spending more time with my family") because I provide financial support to a religious organization whose doctrine re: things like birth control or LGBT issues are out of step with many in our society?

Where do you draw the line? Once you decide that it's not OK to think different, you end up on a steep slope.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#684

Post by hkphooey »

zemo wrote: post #677
hkphooey wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, Mozilla is a technology organization, not a political one. Secondly, is marriage really a civil right? If you say yes, explain why campaigners aren't fighting to allow brother to marry sister, mother to marry son, or polygamous marriages which have a long history in many cultures? I think there are many people who would agree that Eich should not have been forced out for his views and donation, and those who…

>Secondly, is marriage really a civil right? Yes. >If you say yes, explain why campaigners aren't fighting to allow brother to marry sister, mother to marry son, or polygamous marriages which have a long history in many cultures? I think those rights should exist and I'd be shocked if there aren't organizations fighting for the legalization of polygamy. The incestuous marriages you mentioned are probably not represen…

> such a small minority that they're unable to materialize a voice.

Surely the whole point about fighting for civil rights is to help all minorities, not just those who are able to muster a voice...

Anyway, I think it would have been more accurate for the gay marriage campaign to not brand themselves as a fight for marriage equality since it clearly excludes certain factions. Small point but I think the details matter.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#685

Post by stefantalpalaru »

mef wrote: post #633
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of the argument is: people should not be sacked because of their political opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I find this a rational and sustainable position. No one should be afraid of losing their job for voicing their opinion in a public debate. No one.

He wasn't sacked, he stepped down.

Under pressure.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#686

Post by sethish »

dkhenry wrote: post #170

This is a dangerous precedent. On one hand this is the only thing Brendan can do its clear that the community at large will not accept dissenting opinions, but its really a small step between holding this line for a CEO and holding it for any employee.

Slippery slope argument? Really?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#687

Post by clavalle »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #528
clavalle wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rights are not granted. Laws merely define approach to Rights.

I don't believe in natural rights. I believe all rights worth writing down are granted.

That suggests some authority is granting your Rights.

What authority would that be?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#689

Post by victorhooi »

Roscius wrote: post #465
zheng wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish I had more upvotes for this. It's surprising how intolerant people become once their opinion becomes the socially acceptable one.

"While an intolerant sect does not itself have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger." - John Rawls. Intolerance toward Prop 8 supporters is appropriate due to the threat to liberty that the restriction of same sex marriage creates. There is no need to be…

I love the overblown rhetoric here...sigh.

This was never about security or liberty (although it's a bit like the Monty Python sketch - "We're being oppressed, we're being oppressed! We really are!".)

I'm not saying there isn't discrimination against homosexuals in other areas, but this wasn't it.

This was basically a semantic debate about marriages versus civil unions.

A majority of Californians (Eich included) took the viewpoint that marriage was a traditional institution, and if people had a new style of relationship, they should have a new term for it, even if it had the same privileges (not rights - government's can't grant rights).

However, another group said no, we want to use the same word for it (I assume for ideological reasons, as opposed to purely utilitarian ones).

So no, please don't hoist the whole "WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED" flag - it doesn't help your case

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