Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

railsgirlssummerofcode.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 75 posts

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#51

Post by natasham25 »

lutusp wrote: post #14
natasham25 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups becau…

> I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if…

> But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?

Keep in mind this will be her first experience actually programming. I created an iOS app with her - she drew everything an did the voice overs - but hasn't programmed at all.

I want her to get so excited about coding and making something, that she sticks with it. If she's scared away by her first experience, as many women are, there will continue to be a pretty big inequality in tech.

That's why programs like these are so important. I stick with it because I LOVE what I do now and have the confidence and knowledge to stand up to my coworkers, etc - but it took a lot to get to this point. Having safe support in the early stages is critical.

> I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?

I work with men all day. I also go to meetups where there are men - going to one tonight b/c there is a great speaker and I will not miss out on the opportunity only because there are men at the meetup. Also going to a tech conference later this month, where there will be men.

However, going to these events takes a lot of effort and work for me - I have to deal with people not taking me seriously, guys potentially hitting on me, having to prove myself, etc. Would be great if guys made some effort too, but most don't. I can only tolerate so much of it.

That said, again, if there is a safe space for women to learn together and discuss issues they're facing, they're more likely to stay in the industry, which makes a more equal society of women and men. And as more women work with men in tech as programmers, the more men learn to tolerate and work with women. As more women are supported by other women, we will venture out and go to the normal meetups, but the women who code meetups are a great safe environment to get started with and keep as a support network throughout our careers.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#52

Post by yypark »

lomegor wrote: post #26
parennoob wrote: post #7

As an Asian person who undergoes a ton of implicit and occasionally explicit racial discrimination (I have often been called out repeatedly for belonging to a specific nationality, and been the butt of numerous jokes regarding it), it is somewhat disheartening to see people who are higher than you on the social totem pole (e.g. highly-educated white females) often being the beneficiaries of programs such as these on…

Why do you feel the need to say that Asian people are more at a disadvantaged that women? Can't we agree that both are at a disadvantage and we should help them? Your statement is highly subjective and really difficult to prove. You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more. Don't be like that. There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.

Both groups may be at a disadvantage and may have certain privileges, but people rarely acknowledge the (1) the disadvantage of Asians, especially Asian men, and (2) the privileges of white women. Secondly, the population of Asian men is 3% in the US, the population of white women is 32%, and the feminist movement is far stronger than the Asian (or Asian male) movement, thus Asian men are also placed in the "privileged" and "oppressor" class.

So while one powerful group is pushing for representation of women in engineering, another is fighting for broader social equity for Asians - the latter is often seen as less legitimate when applied to Asian men specifically (low social status, lower marriage/dating prospects), or which are huger racial things that may never be fixed anytime soon in a US society while Asians remain a tiny minority, because those are the kinds of inequalities that people tolerate, while under representation of women in engineering is widely recognized and addressed as a bad thing.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#53

Post by yypark »

nmrm wrote: post #23

This is addressed to the copious negative top-level comments. As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important. I attended a computer summer camp as a kid. It was all male and had an very awful culture (e.g. lunch conversations were pretty pubescent and gaming was really important). The culture seriously turned me off, to the point that I stopped programming entirely a…

The copious comments stem from the negativity toward men - male culture and gaming is seen as a bad thing and toxic, but female groups. Why are predominately or all male groups not celebrated for bringing community to young boys?

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#54

Post by questionable »

yypark wrote: post #38
parennoob wrote: post #7

As an Asian person who undergoes a ton of implicit and occasionally explicit racial discrimination (I have often been called out repeatedly for belonging to a specific nationality, and been the butt of numerous jokes regarding it), it is somewhat disheartening to see people who are higher than you on the social totem pole (e.g. highly-educated white females) often being the beneficiaries of programs such as these on…

Unfortunately as an Asian man, you'll get very little sympathy except from other Asian men, and we have very little social or political power to create these sorts of things - people don't really care, or will say you are privileged anyway. Especially social inequalities: there isn't going to be an affirmative action program for dating, and no one's going to create a "make asian guys popular" program. I've found that…

I like your comments on this topic.

A side effect of the political system trying to prop up a given group is that those groups end up doing worse on a number of metrics. So, to your point about blessings: one of our blessings is that we aren't the targets of these kinds of initiatives.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#55

Post by natasham25 »

draker wrote: post #34
natasham25 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups becau…

Did you make your feelings and experience known to the organizers of the normal Rails meetup? I say this because everyone should have a "safe and welcoming environment" and it is the failure of that meetup to provide that for everyone. They should look at ways they can make the meetup more friendly for all people whether men/women, beginner/expert etc. Maybe a man attending the same night would have the same experien…

Good point - I wish I had the confidence back then to say something. Instead, I just left and never went back. A few months later, I switched to iOS.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#56

Post by parennoob »

lomegor wrote: post #26
parennoob wrote: post #7

As an Asian person who undergoes a ton of implicit and occasionally explicit racial discrimination (I have often been called out repeatedly for belonging to a specific nationality, and been the butt of numerous jokes regarding it), it is somewhat disheartening to see people who are higher than you on the social totem pole (e.g. highly-educated white females) often being the beneficiaries of programs such as these on…

Why do you feel the need to say that Asian people are more at a disadvantaged that women? Can't we agree that both are at a disadvantage and we should help them? Your statement is highly subjective and really difficult to prove. You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more. Don't be like that. There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.

> Why do you feel the need to say that Asian people are more at a disadvantaged that women? Can't we agree that both are at a disadvantage and we should help them?

I was trying to say that Asian people are also at a disadvantage, and that we should try to help them as well. I have seen several "X for Women in Tech" initiatives, and absolutely none for, say, "Asian Men in Tech".

> You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more

That implication may seem true if you think of "resources for helping" as a finite amount. I was just saying that we should help Asian people more. This could actually be a good thing. Maybe there are rich Asian men who don't donate to "Rails Girls Summer of Code", but who might consider donating to a similar program for Asian people? I don't know.

> There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.

Definitely. But as a disadvantaged person myself, it would benefit me and others like me more to promote the empowerment of an often-overlooked group of people.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#57

Post by TheFullStack »

monkeynotes wrote: post #35
TheFullStack wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monkeynotes, don't take this the wrong way but you will never understand what it's like to be called a derogatory term as minority in a society that constantly denigrates your background. It's just not the same. It just isn't.

What if I moved to a country where I was the minority? Could I then understand?

I guess. If you were born in that country and every day you dealt with negative portrayals of people who like you (William Hung, Long Duck Dong, etc), you would probably understand.

More importantly, I'm not asking you to understand. It's not your responsibility and I don't blame you for any of this. It's just something that Asian males have to learn to deal with. We just have to man up and deal with it.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#58

Post by yypark »

monkeynotes wrote: post #20
TheFullStack wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also an Asian male and you're right about the implicit (and sometimes explicit) discrimination we deal with. I was at a party last summer and someone called me a "Jap" but was "just kidding." White people don't deal with this. However, I also benefit from being an Asian male software developer. Whenever I meet new people in business, I am automatically assumed to be smart which has proven highly profitable. Findi…

> White people don't deal with this. I am white. I get called 'brit' or 'pom' or 'white guy' and so on all the time by colleagues of various ethnic or cultural backgrounds. I take it as friendly jibing unless I can see there is clear intention to upset.

I agree that people can be racist against whites too. However if you're the majority in the country you'll experience it far less than if you're say 6%.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#59

Post by facepalm »

nmrm wrote: post #23

This is addressed to the copious negative top-level comments. As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important. I attended a computer summer camp as a kid. It was all male and had an very awful culture (e.g. lunch conversations were pretty pubescent and gaming was really important). The culture seriously turned me off, to the point that I stopped programming entirely a…

Too bad we don't know anything about the culture of an all girls summercamp. I'm sure it would be all love and unicorns.

Perhaps there can be different sorts of summer camps? Some boys might like gaming and actually go through puberty. Other boys might be into other things. Why shouldn't they all have a perfect summer camp? Likewise for girls...

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#60

Post by username223 »

wyager wrote: post #36
username223 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a (silly and misguided, IMHO) set of perks for some people at all related to a campaign to deny basic rights to some other people because you think they're icky? Live and let live, yo!

So you're saying it's ok to give "perks" based on gender, but not to detract based on gender? Those seem like different ways of saying the same thing. Discriminating in favor of one group is more or less isometric to discriminating against the other group. A code camp that was boys-only would get torn apart on hacker news, even though it follows your definition of a "set of perks for some people".

Yes. You're welcome to ask for money for e.g. an "Aryans for Rails" fund. That's very different from lobbying for apartheid laws.
Post reply on HN