Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014 • Hacker News Board

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#31

Post by lomegor » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #2

Do I need to explain what's wrong with this idea? Imagine that I started a program called "Rails boys summer of code". The alternative is obvious -- have qualified girls apply to an appropriately named rails summer of code, and if they're rejected based on their gender, take the responsible parties to court. This is how gender equality comes into being -- not by creating a set-aside program conspicuous only for its o…

> The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender.

No, the underlying message is that society treats women and men differently, and thus comparisons like what you just did (changing "girls" for "boys") do not work. You may not believe that, but that's another problem. If I create a program to help poor people become programmers, am I really saying that rich people are different than poor people? And do you think I can use "low income" and "high income" interchangeably on those programs?

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#32

Post by nmrm » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

prof_hobart wrote: post #10

It would help if there was some explicit explanation of why they think this is necessary. Are women being discriminated against when the apply to the more general Summer Of Code events, or are they choosing not to apply because they are (or are worried about being) harassed or ostracized when they go to those events? And if either of these are issues, it seems far healthier in the long term to address those problems…

From personal experience, it's a cultural issue.

Admissions aren't discriminatory, but summer camps of this sort are typically dominated by males. Being the only "different" person in a largely homogeneous group can cause all sorts of difficulties at that age.

Sense of community and belonging are as important, if not more important, than instruction.

FWIW, male-dominated summer camps are a problem for males and females alike. Many middle school boys don't like having the sorts of lunch time conversations that groups of middle school guys invariably gravitate toward.

If you have a way to solve the massive over-representation of males in summer programming camps, please share! Until such solutions exist, camps such as this one are undeniably crucial.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#33

Post by TheFullStack » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

adamdavis wrote: post #25

TheFullStack wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monkeynotes, don't take this the wrong way but you will never understand what it's like to be called a derogatory term as minority in a society that constantly denigrates your background. It's just not the same. It just isn't.

I think you're very sadly mistaken - white people can be victims of racism, too, you dig? I grew up and went through a school system where white people were by far the minority, and yes, I had to deal with racism. edit: Downvotes? Yikes. Like most people, I'd prefer some constructive replies instead of silent detractors, but it is what it is.

I'm never going to change your mind on this and you will never change my mind so let's leave it at that.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#34

Post by draker » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

natasham25 wrote: post #9

lutusp wrote: post #2

Do I need to explain what's wrong with this idea? Imagine that I started a program called "Rails boys summer of code". The alternative is obvious -- have qualified girls apply to an appropriately named rails summer of code, and if they're rejected based on their gender, take the responsible parties to court. This is how gender equality comes into being -- not by creating a set-aside program conspicuous only for its o…

I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups becau…

Did you make your feelings and experience known to the organizers of the normal Rails meetup?

I say this because everyone should have a "safe and welcoming environment" and it is the failure of that meetup to provide that for everyone. They should look at ways they can make the meetup more friendly for all people whether men/women, beginner/expert etc.

Maybe a man attending the same night would have the same experience and feelings, and he doesn't have the option to attend the only women meetups.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#35

Post by monkeynotes » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

TheFullStack wrote: post #24

monkeynotes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> White people don't deal with this. I am white. I get called 'brit' or 'pom' or 'white guy' and so on all the time by colleagues of various ethnic or cultural backgrounds. I take it as friendly jibing unless I can see there is clear intention to upset.

Monkeynotes, don't take this the wrong way but you will never understand what it's like to be called a derogatory term as minority in a society that constantly denigrates your background. It's just not the same. It just isn't.

What if I moved to a country where I was the minority? Could I then understand?

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#36

Post by wyager » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

username223 wrote: post #18

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #12

Be careful who you donate to. Sometimes in the future you might become the CEO of Mozilla and this kind of sexism might be considered unacceptable enough to spark a boycott campaign.

How is a (silly and misguided, IMHO) set of perks for some people at all related to a campaign to deny basic rights to some other people because you think they're icky? Live and let live, yo!

So you're saying it's ok to give "perks" based on gender, but not to detract based on gender?

Those seem like different ways of saying the same thing. Discriminating in favor of one group is more or less isometric to discriminating against the other group.

A code camp that was boys-only would get torn apart on hacker news, even though it follows your definition of a "set of perks for some people".

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#37

Post by dingaling » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

wwwwwwwwww wrote: post #15

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #12

Be careful who you donate to. Sometimes in the future you might become the CEO of Mozilla and this kind of sexism might be considered unacceptable enough to spark a boycott campaign.

Be careful about what topics you make political jokes about. Don't forget that your rights end where my feelings begin, especially regarding social issues.

> Don't forget that your rights end where my feelings begin

I think the quote is that "your rights end at the tip of my nose".

No-one's rights should be infringed because someone is merely displeased or offended.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#38

Post by yypark » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #7

As an Asian person who undergoes a ton of implicit and occasionally explicit racial discrimination (I have often been called out repeatedly for belonging to a specific nationality, and been the butt of numerous jokes regarding it), it is somewhat disheartening to see people who are higher than you on the social totem pole (e.g. highly-educated white females) often being the beneficiaries of programs such as these on…

Unfortunately as an Asian man, you'll get very little sympathy except from other Asian men, and we have very little social or political power to create these sorts of things - people don't really care, or will say you are privileged anyway.

Especially social inequalities: there isn't going to be an affirmative action program for dating, and no one's going to create a "make asian guys popular" program.

I've found that expecting the modern political system to take care of us is still a fantasy, so the best solution is to not complain too much, focus on your blessings, and work on improving yourself.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#39

Post by azakai » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

I tried to donate to this, but

1. The popup to donate shows up on a page where the URL is not https. This looks wrong, but closer inspection shows that it is an iframe that is in fact properly secured. But had I not known how to find that out (right-click, show page info), I would not enter my credit card info on a non-https site.

2. My card was declined, the first time in my life that that has ever happened. I triple-checked the information I entered and it is valid. Could be my fault, but given I've never had a problem before, perhaps an issue with the site?

Based on those two things, this project might be missing out on some amount of donations (at least mine, since I don't have another card to try). Hopefully that's fixable.

Re: Help fund Rails Girls Summer of Code 2014

#40

Post by smtddr » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

azakai wrote: post #39

I tried to donate to this, but 1. The popup to donate shows up on a page where the URL is not https. This looks wrong, but closer inspection shows that it is an iframe that is in fact properly secured. But had I not known how to find that out (right-click, show page info), I would not enter my credit card info on a non-https site. 2. My card was declined, the first time in my life that that has ever happened. I tripl…

Personally, I think that's a web UI design flaw where the page loads non https but a credit-card form has a POST as https. Also, I'm kinda concerned that vice-versa could happen.

I wish browsers had a feature to detect what appears to be a form asking for sensitive info and let me know if the POST will happen over https or not. Basically, stop me from proceeding anytime a form is about to submit containing a field of 16 digits with some kind of modal warning dialog.