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US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

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Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#111

Post by crusso »

jbooth wrote: post #86
gadders wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that whole period it was heavily subsidised by the USSR.

..and the right-wing juntas up and down latin america were subsidized by the US. Cuba still did better. You could say, "But that's not a fair comparison, the USSR subsidized things that actually helped people in Cuba while the US only funded commando death squads and fruit exporters, of course Cuba had a higher standard of living".. at which point I'd ask you to review what you just wrote.

Wow, a "preemptive strike straw man". You don't see that every day. :)

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#112

Post by Crito »

moo wrote: post #106
Crito wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically no he didn't, not any more so than they normally run on time in Italy anyway. Even if we assume it was true though, should it really color our opinion of him? I mean shit, during that time period the Germans campaigned against smoking and began construction of the autobahn. Those things were positive and are correctly credited as things that they got right, but obviously those things should not be used to…

Nazi crimes did not stop the U.S. from recruiting their rocket scientists and welcoming their intelligence people into the fold. I was just correcting Morgante. I'm not saying Cuba is some social paradise. But you sure seem to be comparing Cuba to Nazi Germany. Something I thought only those exiles did.

Althought strictly speaking I would say that I am comparing Mussolini to the Nazis (@gadders is the one that compared Cuba to Mussolini's Italy), I firmly believe that you can compare anything to anything.

I can compare apples to oranges ("oranges are more acidic and juicier, and apples are crunchier, although both are quite tastey"), I can compare apples to Hitler ("More people have enjoyed apples, and Hitler was a better painter than any apple that I have ever seen, although both are biological organisms") and I can certainly compare any world leader to Hitler and any government to the Nazis.

What I am certainly not doing is equating them. Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany were similar in many respects, and dissimilar in many other respects.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#113

Post by blacksmith_tb »

DominikR wrote: post #102

That's the reason why countries like Russia and China make it so hard for NGOs to work within their borders. I can't blame them for that, why should they allow foreign governments to stir up protests in their countries? Is anyone better off in Libya, Syria or Egypt after the so called "Arab Spring" destabilized these countries?

The answer there may be "not yet". But Tunisia is an example of a positive outcome.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#114

Post by jbooth »

crusso wrote: post #111
jbooth wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

..and the right-wing juntas up and down latin america were subsidized by the US. Cuba still did better. You could say, "But that's not a fair comparison, the USSR subsidized things that actually helped people in Cuba while the US only funded commando death squads and fruit exporters, of course Cuba had a higher standard of living".. at which point I'd ask you to review what you just wrote.

Wow, a "preemptive strike straw man". You don't see that every day. :)

Apparently you feel obligated to disagree with my substance, but had to settle for attacking my writing style.

It wasn't pre-emptive or a straw man -- the poster had just (not pre-emptive) said that living standards were an unfair comparison due to USSR subsidies to Cuba (not a strawman), which is a fair point. I just pointed out that the US supported it's pet governments as well, and contrasted the USSR's approach with the USA's.

Ever read that book 'The Ugly American' back in the day? Great read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#115

Post by moo »

Crito wrote: post #112
moo wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi crimes did not stop the U.S. from recruiting their rocket scientists and welcoming their intelligence people into the fold. I was just correcting Morgante. I'm not saying Cuba is some social paradise. But you sure seem to be comparing Cuba to Nazi Germany. Something I thought only those exiles did.

Althought strictly speaking I would say that I am comparing Mussolini to the Nazis (@gadders is the one that compared Cuba to Mussolini's Italy) , I firmly believe that you can compare anything to anything. I can compare apples to oranges ("oranges are more acidic and juicier, and apples are crunchier, although both are quite tastey") , I can compare apples to Hitler ("More people have enjoyed apples, and Hitler was…

I meant compare as balance, equate. but I'm sure you understood that you pedantic ass.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#116

Post by kenrikm »

rickmzp wrote: post #93
icambron wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Unpopular with whom? Are you telling me that Cubans (meaning people who actually live there) support the embargo? Because that doesn't really make sense. > If I were in charge of the project, I figure I'd probably also avoid giving this project a U.S. brand as to not catch the attention of C…

Generally it has been unpopular with Cuban exiles, Cuban activists, and others in support of a free economy and free speech for Cubans. Recently there has been movement since power was transitioned to Raul that has had Cuba experiment with more economic freedoms[1]. Opinion has indeed evolved to want to open relations with Cuba in an effort to continue that trend[2]. (h/t dragonwriter for report) But even with that,…

I'm originally from Miami (now in SF) I still have a house in Miami and my Wife is Cuban. What people know about Cuba and the reality of Cuba are two different things. A lot of the time the thing that keeps people from starving there are the "Micro" Aid flights that happen every day by family members of people who are still stuck on that island. And the Cuban government charges for every pound of "aid" that comes in.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#117

Post by crusso »

jbooth wrote: post #114
crusso wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, a "preemptive strike straw man". You don't see that every day. :)

Apparently you feel obligated to disagree with my substance, but had to settle for attacking my writing style. It wasn't pre-emptive or a straw man -- the poster had just (not pre-emptive) said that living standards were an unfair comparison due to USSR subsidies to Cuba (not a strawman), which is a fair point. I just pointed out that the US supported it's pet governments as well, and contrasted the USSR's approach w…

Apparently you want to disagree with my point

Jeez, another straw man. Are they really necessary?

Actually I do think that Cuba has been tragically mishandled by the US. I would have thought that trading with them and being a good example of Freedom for them would have been much better than trying to punish the dictators with perpetual embargo.

That said, I sympathize with Cuban refugees who are furious with the mistreatment of dissidents and want the US government to continue a hard line against Cuba.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#118

Post by kaonashi »

kenrikm wrote: post #107
smutticus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Batista regime, which came before Castro, was much worse for the people of Cuba. The US supported the Batista regime because of commercial interests. I'm not going to argue that the Castro is a saint, but the people of Cuba are definitely being treated better than had Batista stayed. No thanks to the US of course, which did everything it could to reinstitute a more corporate friendly dictator in Cuba. Now it seem…

Wow, I'm speechless. You really believe that? My wife is Cuban I've spent a lot of time talking with her grandparents, parents, friends etc.. on the subject. Batista was no saint but things got 100X worse after the revolution. You won't hear the on the ground truth unless you speak with people who were there.

Worse for whom? I'm not sure your second-hand anecdotal experiences are all that representative.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#119

Post by bayesianhorse »

gclaramunt wrote: post #108
bayesianhorse wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe in democracy, you can't believe in any "moral right" or legitimacy of a non-democratic government. Castro, Assad, Putin, neither of them has a moral right to run their countries, as only a freely elected government in a human-rights respecting state can have legitimacy. That doesn't mean these leaders don't have "a claim" to power, or that you necessarily have to actively start deposing them. Yet the o…

But you need to be careful to discern what's """real""" and what's propaganda. From the outside, I can also paint a bleak picture of US election process (vote fraud, electoral college, gerrymandering) and if I select the correct news, the US have a presidency bordering on dictatorship that's bent on taking basic rights from the population, and a repressive police force. Besides, the qualification of "human-rights res…

No democracy ever has been perfect. But You need to apply some serious distortion if you want to say the US is less democratic than Russia. At the very least you have to ignore that there is no opposition in Russia, virtually no dissenting media, virtually no investigative journalism and absolutely legendary corruption.

You also need to focus very specifically on "repressive police force", which is easier to do in the US, where the press will hunt down these incidences like sharks will hunt blood in the water.

Transparency actually hurts the democratic image of the US, whereas Russia won't ever have these kinds of public scandals...

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#120

Post by jbooth »

crusso wrote: post #117
jbooth wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently you feel obligated to disagree with my substance, but had to settle for attacking my writing style. It wasn't pre-emptive or a straw man -- the poster had just (not pre-emptive) said that living standards were an unfair comparison due to USSR subsidies to Cuba (not a strawman), which is a fair point. I just pointed out that the US supported it's pet governments as well, and contrasted the USSR's approach w…

Apparently you want to disagree with my point Jeez, another straw man. Are they really necessary? Actually I do think that Cuba has been tragically mishandled by the US. I would have thought that trading with them and being a good example of Freedom for them would have been much better than trying to punish the dictators with perpetual embargo. That said, I sympathize with Cuban refugees who are furious with the mist…

It's pretty rare for someone to come in pointing out flaws in an argument they agree with.

You say that you did agree with me, so my apologies for attributing that view to you.

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