US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest • Hacker News Board

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#91

Post by tremols » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:14 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #40

morgante wrote: post #29

I'm sure this will bring me lots of downvotes, but I actually applaud these tactics. Helping people in oppressive regimes to communicate freely with each other is one of the more humanitarian actions the US can take, and this sort of connectivity is critical in allowing people a degree of freedom even under totalitarian governments. Truly repressive regimes are out there, and without foreign interference and investme…

Right... as if the US could not do anything else to help Cuba and it's people. (E.g. abolishing the trade embargo.)

The trade embargo is the best thing that happened to Cuba's government; it gives them the perfect excuse for the economic failure of comunism when actually they can trade freely with many countries.

Exports: Many non-US countries can buy their sugar and tobacco beyond their production capacity.

Imports: most US goods are a luxury when you can import food from latin america and anything else from China.

So it doesn't make sense to say that the cubans are suffering because they don't have McDonalds, Coca-cola, Zara, Adidas and Monsanto seeds or because they don't have a market for exporting their sugar and tobacco.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#92

Post by moo » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:21 PM UTC

icambron wrote: post #78

morgante wrote: post #29

I'm sure this will bring me lots of downvotes, but I actually applaud these tactics. Helping people in oppressive regimes to communicate freely with each other is one of the more humanitarian actions the US can take, and this sort of connectivity is critical in allowing people a degree of freedom even under totalitarian governments. Truly repressive regimes are out there, and without foreign interference and investme…

Strongly disagree, though I'd never downvote you for that. Why did the US go to such great lengths to hide its involvement? You might answer that the US's checkered past in foreign policy (coups, assassinations, drug wars, oil wars, supported rebellions, etc) will make the world suspicious despite our altruistic intensions here. But I think the rest of the world's answer is simpler and more likely: our intentions are…

I'm goin be watchin you bro. You speak too much truth.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#93

Post by rickmzp » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:24 PM UTC

icambron wrote: post #88

rickmzp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from my original comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523278 , since it seems very relevant here. ---- Cuban-American here. Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Allowing the Cuban people to communicate and band together within the country is attempted all the time by government-affiliated and independent organ…

> Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Unpopular with whom? Are you telling me that Cubans (meaning people who actually live there) support the embargo? Because that doesn't really make sense. > If I were in charge of the project, I figure I'd probably also avoid giving this project a U.S. brand as to not catch the attention of C…

Generally it has been unpopular with Cuban exiles, Cuban activists, and others in support of a free economy and free speech for Cubans. Recently there has been movement since power was transitioned to Raul that has had Cuba experiment with more economic freedoms[1]. Opinion has indeed evolved to want to open relations with Cuba in an effort to continue that trend[2]. (h/t dragonwriter for report) But even with that, there's along way to go for the Cuban people.[3]*

The people who actually live there who saw the transition have been generally supportive of US intervention in Cuba. They have been supremely disappointed in the US for their failures in their interventions (Bay of Pigs disaster, agreeing to never invade and bring down Castro, ineffective sanctions, etc.).

As you can imagine, most of the people who live there now have grown up with texts that describe the embargo in such a way that there is no way to see it as a response to the government in Cuba. The way people paint the full picture is privately through discussions, private texts, and secret communications back and forth with extended family in Miami. I hope that helps you make more sense of what conclusions can be drawn by the people there.

Not sure if your final comment was a snide attempt at saying I'm missing depth on this issue, but this issue is quite important to me and my family and one we are pretty intimate with.

If you've read carefully, you'll know I'm not arguing a solution, but simply giving you an important perspective that was surprisingly lacking for such a lengthy original post. But hey, hasn't the Internet taught me anything?

Ok, back to work now!

[1] http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/14/opinion/la-ed-cuba15... [2] http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/2014cubap... [3] http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/for-cubans-freedom-re...

*EDITED to add link and clarify

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#94

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:30 PM UTC

rickmzp wrote: post #83

icambron wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree, though I'd never downvote you for that. Why did the US go to such great lengths to hide its involvement? You might answer that the US's checkered past in foreign policy (coups, assassinations, drug wars, oil wars, supported rebellions, etc) will make the world suspicious despite our altruistic intensions here. But I think the rest of the world's answer is simpler and more likely: our intentions are…

Quoting from my original comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523278 , since it seems very relevant here. ---- Cuban-American here. Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Allowing the Cuban people to communicate and band together within the country is attempted all the time by government-affiliated and independent organ…

> Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular.

Not with the American people it doesn't seem to be [1].

[1] http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/2014cubap...

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#95

Post by noahl » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #33

morgante wrote: post #29

I'm sure this will bring me lots of downvotes, but I actually applaud these tactics. Helping people in oppressive regimes to communicate freely with each other is one of the more humanitarian actions the US can take, and this sort of connectivity is critical in allowing people a degree of freedom even under totalitarian governments. Truly repressive regimes are out there, and without foreign interference and investme…

Well, the US has a pretty checkered history regarding Cuba if you're going to talk about altruism. I'd say we've done more to inadvertantly prop up that regime than to undermine it. There are 3 nominally communist countries left in the world, from a high of dozens -- Cuba's one of them, and probably the closest to actually being communist (China and North Korea being technocratic-capitalist and pharaonic, respectivel…

I realize this may have been an offhand remark in your post, but your description of North Korea as pharaonic is very interesting and something I hadn't thought about before. Do you have any sources comparing North Korea with the government of ancient Egypt, or is that just a comment on the country being built around one person?

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#96

Post by bayesianhorse » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #89

gadders wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that would prop up the current dictatorship.

We prop up worse with less concern. The real reason we won't drop the trade embargo is that it's a very powerful bargaining chip, for whenever the Cuban government decides to talk.

I think the US is still holding a grudge about the little incident with the nuclear missiles, when Che Guevarra tried to convince the Soviets behind the scenes to launch a nuclear preemptive strike against the US...

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#97

Post by rickmzp » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #94

rickmzp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from my original comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523278 , since it seems very relevant here. ---- Cuban-American here. Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Allowing the Cuban people to communicate and band together within the country is attempted all the time by government-affiliated and independent organ…

> Helping Castro's controlled economy before giving control of the government and said economy back to its people is unpopular. Not with the American people it doesn't seem to be [1]. [1] http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/2014cubap...

Oooh, thanks for this! I meant it is unpopular with Cuban exiles and the surrounding community, but I am looking forward to learning more about the current state of opinion from the linked report.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#98

Post by tremols » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:38 PM UTC

This just sounds like Castro-Chavista propaganda and its worrying that americans and europeans are starting to buy this crap.

The idea that US government fights against communism and extreme islam is just an old lie kept alive by both left & right parties and there is enough evidence of the contrary (ie Allies surrendering eastern europe to the URSS, US backing up Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, supporting the coup against the Persian Shah and Al Qaeda).

So the truth is that communism and extreme islam are psycho-social ideological weapons designed to bring countries down - not much different than how opium was used as a weapon by the brittish.

Then Bankers, the weaponry industry, international insurance companies, and transnationals among other birds of prey enjoy doing juicy billionary businesses with the talibanized governments anywhere be it africa or latin america.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#99

Post by bayesianhorse » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:44 PM UTC

BgSpnnrs wrote: post #44

morgante wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I definitely don't think we've always had the best policies on Cuba, and also am not entirely convinced Cuba is itself the best target of this sort of effort. But regardless I think the tactics themselves are commendable. Speech, not guns.

I think a more commendable tactic would be to not stick their oar into sovereign state's business with a mind to ruin their systems of government. I suppose not killing people is commendable, but it is pretty low bar for moral behaviour.

If you believe in democracy, you can't believe in any "moral right" or legitimacy of a non-democratic government. Castro, Assad, Putin, neither of them has a moral right to run their countries, as only a freely elected government in a human-rights respecting state can have legitimacy.

That doesn't mean these leaders don't have "a claim" to power, or that you necessarily have to actively start deposing them.

Yet the only reason a democratic government does not depose an antidemocratic government is if it can't do so. And the latter is true for almost all situations. It stops to be true when there is a specific oportunity to improve the situation.

Re: US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

#100

Post by bayesianhorse » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:49 PM UTC

smutticus wrote: post #87

morgante wrote: post #29

I'm sure this will bring me lots of downvotes, but I actually applaud these tactics. Helping people in oppressive regimes to communicate freely with each other is one of the more humanitarian actions the US can take, and this sort of connectivity is critical in allowing people a degree of freedom even under totalitarian governments. Truly repressive regimes are out there, and without foreign interference and investme…

The Batista regime, which came before Castro, was much worse for the people of Cuba. The US supported the Batista regime because of commercial interests. I'm not going to argue that the Castro is a saint, but the people of Cuba are definitely being treated better than had Batista stayed. No thanks to the US of course, which did everything it could to reinstitute a more corporate friendly dictator in Cuba. Now it seem…

Is there any evidence that the US (whoever calls the shots, a question you conveniently left out) tried to "reinstate a corporate friendly dictator" rather than a democractic government?

The "vassal, puppet state" rethoric seems hardly helpful...

I grant you that in the cold war, the US were more interested in denying the soviets an ally on their front steps rather than to help the Cuban state to evolve. But back then there were all these puppet wars, nuclear missiles and nasty rethoric going on...