Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#161

Post by fleitz » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:33 AM UTC

TIHan wrote: post #159

fleitz wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I mean somewhere else, because for the most part the cross platform stuff doesn't work. Oh? You have a cross platform path separator builtin? Wow that must be totally worth 200 MB of garbage. I'm sure the client will be fine with fucking around with the CLR / JVM all day instead of just downloading a 200 KB executable. It's just what they need, now not only do they need to update your application but they have a d…

What in the world are you talking about? Apps in Xamarin can be as much as 10mb for a full app. Its linker is smart and knows not to bring in stuff it doesn't need. If you don't, it's around 40mb.

I'm talking about releasing a cross platform app for Windows, Linux, OSX, Android, and iOS, and the differences between Java/C# and C.

To be fair I haven't tried to release an app for Windows/OSX from Xamarin but my understanding is that it requires the .NET or Mono frameworks which on most computers is a 100 to 200 MB install.

For Java you're for sure going to have to download the JRE. When you start the app it eats gobs of memory.

Maybe it's changed but even Xamarin itself requires Mono to be installed, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about, you should download the app, drag it to applications, done. Or on Windows click Next a whole bunch of times.

Even the monstrosity that is XCode is a one drag install.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#162

Post by juarez » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:46 AM UTC

amaks wrote: post #11

sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can adapt any part of the app. I.e. you can simply migrate the app to be universal across devices, but if a specific part does not look good, then you can change the XAML/code behind for that part.

But do these "universal" apps still run full screen on 30" monitor? If so, then it's not a good UX. The benefit of a large high resolution monitor is to display lots of information at the same time, this frequently implies more than one app/window visible at the same time.

XAML and its Adaptive Design concept allows the layout to rearrange itself to better fit smaller or larger screens. And the programmer can always explicitly use different UIs depending on how many pixels are available to the app.

And everything I wrote is already happening (actually, it's been happening for a while). Just try any well-built W8 app in different screen sizes or snapping configurations. ;)

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#163

Post by interpol_p » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:09 AM UTC

gecko wrote: post #61

fleitz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amazing thing is that you can potentially write all your code in C and have backend/frontend logic for the web, Windows, Windows Phone, OSX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Tru64, VAX, Arduino, Linux Kernel, Windows Kernel, Mach, Hurd, and practically every processor or operating system ever built, and even iOS/Android (via Xamarin). Wow. You can even link to and reuse that code from languages such as: C++, C#, Java, Ruby, Per…

C# is a much higher-level language than C, with a much richer set of libraries that can be relied upon to be everywhere. That's why it matters.

> C# is a much higher-level language than C, with a much richer set of libraries that can be relied upon to be everywhere. That's why it matters.

Actually this is not true. I've just been tasked with maintaining some C# code that is used as a business tool.

No problem, I thought, I'll just use Xamarin and Mono on my Mac. I made progress, but as soon as the C# code went to use the OleDbConnection stuff (to write to an MS Access database and make Excel files) it threw a DLLNotFoundException. So now I have to find a Windows machine to do the rest of my debugging.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#164

Post by bananas » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 6:39 AM UTC

tomwilson wrote: post #151

bananas wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's rock solid underneath. The TCP stack hasn't been a 32-bit driver since XP. NTFS has been modernised already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReFS The registry is fine - it's people pissing around in it that break it. Win32 - haven't touched it for years. Driver model: not my problem. Mavericks is a crime compared to windows 8.1. I use both, regularly. It's virtually impossible to use efficiently with a keyboard…

All these points are fine but theres no reason to flat out lie about the quality of Mavericks.... 1) Keyboard shortcuts are fine, if u use a OSX all day every day you will think Windows shortcuts are bad. That and you can edit pretty much every single shortcut in OSX if you are really that offended by them. 2) If your apps are crashing every 2mins (or even more than once a week...) your computer is f'd.

No they're horrible, inconsistent between apps and put emacs to shame.

It is fecked. Its a 2011 MBP with NVidia graphics. Total waste of money that was. Totally unreliable machine.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#165

Post by fit2rule » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:34 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #106

fleitz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amazing thing is that you can potentially write all your code in C and have backend/frontend logic for the web, Windows, Windows Phone, OSX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Tru64, VAX, Arduino, Linux Kernel, Windows Kernel, Mach, Hurd, and practically every processor or operating system ever built, and even iOS/Android (via Xamarin). Wow. You can even link to and reuse that code from languages such as: C++, C#, Java, Ruby, Per…

> he amazing thing is that you can potentially write all your code in C and have backend/frontend logic for the web, Windows, Windows Phone, OSX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Tru64, VAX, Arduino, Linux Kernel, Windows Kernel, Mach, Hurd, and practically every processor or operating system ever built, and even iOS/Android (via Xamarin). Wow. Have you ever done C development like this, ever in your life? I did. Between 1994 and 2…

Solution: Lua.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#166

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 9:55 AM UTC

nbevans wrote: post #121

taiki wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've been way more clear about my gripe with the Windows TCP/IP stack. Why the hell does the TCP/IP stack eat itself? No other OS I've ever used has the nuttiness that is netsh winsock reset as a regular troubleshooting step when diagnosing network connectivity issues. I was long under the impression that the reason why that kept happening was that the NT kernel didn't have a robust TCP/IP stack of its own and…

None of the "problems" of which you speak are actually mainstream problems. It's perfectly possible to hose your network stack in any OS. Just don't do that and you'll be fine. USB drivers, sound drivers, printer drivers, web cam drivers, etc etc, are all using user-mode drivers since Vista. They cannot crash your system. Similarly, graphics card drivers use a special model that means they can auto-restart if they we…

hose your network stack in any OS

No, this is very very rare on things that aren't Windows.

Lots of people say "registry corruption" when they mean "cruft"; over time apps register shell extensions and various other systemwide bits and pieces that gradually reduce UI responsiveness or break in strange ways.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#167

Post by m_mueller » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:50 AM UTC

nbevans wrote: post #121

taiki wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've been way more clear about my gripe with the Windows TCP/IP stack. Why the hell does the TCP/IP stack eat itself? No other OS I've ever used has the nuttiness that is netsh winsock reset as a regular troubleshooting step when diagnosing network connectivity issues. I was long under the impression that the reason why that kept happening was that the NT kernel didn't have a robust TCP/IP stack of its own and…

None of the "problems" of which you speak are actually mainstream problems. It's perfectly possible to hose your network stack in any OS. Just don't do that and you'll be fine. USB drivers, sound drivers, printer drivers, web cam drivers, etc etc, are all using user-mode drivers since Vista. They cannot crash your system. Similarly, graphics card drivers use a special model that means they can auto-restart if they we…

From your one can tell that Windows is really engrained in your workflow. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's sometimes good to open up a bit and acknowledge the weaknesses of a system such that you can use this knowledge for future decisions.

So let me give you examples of why the registry is wrong. Let's say you or a user that you administer has a problem with Complex GUI application - for some reason it won't start anymore. What's your usual solution in Windows? Right, reinstall the thing and hope for the registry being cleaned ine the process. POSIX systems? Delete the config files either in the home folder or globally per app. OSX even has forma and location of these files standardized.

Then again, why even install an app? A userland application should never feel the need of any 'installation'. That's again how it works in OSX, mostly thanks to being registry free.

The main benefit of the Windows way is how registry settings can be pushed with the AD - but there's no reason this couldn't be solved without a registry. Containerization is where I see POSIX going in order to solve this.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#168

Post by stinos » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 10:52 AM UTC

berkut wrote: post #66

gecko wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is a much higher-level language than C, with a much richer set of libraries that can be relied upon to be everywhere. That's why it matters.

You can rely on C# being on all platforms by default? Linux and OS X? Really? Last time I used Windows (several years ago), there were always apps that needed to download and install the latest version of the .NET runtime... - is that still a thing?

is that still a thing?

come on, you make it sound like Windows is the only OS that has prerequisites for software?

Last time I checked, yesterday, I wanted to get a file server running on my Debian machine and I had to apt-get install 5 different packages I didn't yet have.

So, yes, that's still a thing, and it always will be. Although afaik since Windows 7 .Net 4 or at least 3.5 should always be there, and 4.5 on Windows 8.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#169

Post by nbevans » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:02 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #166

nbevans wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the "problems" of which you speak are actually mainstream problems. It's perfectly possible to hose your network stack in any OS. Just don't do that and you'll be fine. USB drivers, sound drivers, printer drivers, web cam drivers, etc etc, are all using user-mode drivers since Vista. They cannot crash your system. Similarly, graphics card drivers use a special model that means they can auto-restart if they we…

hose your network stack in any OS No, this is very very rare on things that aren't Windows. Lots of people say "registry corruption" when they mean "cruft"; over time apps register shell extensions and various other systemwide bits and pieces that gradually reduce UI responsiveness or break in strange ways.

It's rare on Windows too. Only on Hacker News, on this thread, does it appear to be an issue.

Re: Microsoft introduces Universal Windows apps

#170

Post by nbevans » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 11:05 AM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #167

nbevans wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the "problems" of which you speak are actually mainstream problems. It's perfectly possible to hose your network stack in any OS. Just don't do that and you'll be fine. USB drivers, sound drivers, printer drivers, web cam drivers, etc etc, are all using user-mode drivers since Vista. They cannot crash your system. Similarly, graphics card drivers use a special model that means they can auto-restart if they we…

From your one can tell that Windows is really engrained in your workflow. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's sometimes good to open up a bit and acknowledge the weaknesses of a system such that you can use this knowledge for future decisions. So let me give you examples of why the registry is wrong. Let's say you or a user that you administer has a problem with Complex GUI application - for some reason it won'…

Wait just a minute. The topic was registry corruption. Not whether the registry is a good or bad idea as a whole.

All I said is that the registry corruption is a non issue. It was a slight problem on Windows 9x; but it never happened to me personally. But was never an issue at any point on Windows NT based systems.

I've known for years that the registry in itself is a software design anti-pattern. It's just a giant bag of global mutable state. Of course it is bad by design. But don't let a bad design be misconstrued as something that is also buggy and prone to corruption. Because it isn't.

PS: It's not that Windows is "engrained in my workflow". Full disclosure: I use a MacBook. It's just me defending it against senseless and baseless attacks and accusations here on HN. I notice for example that people shut up when I pointed out that Windows has the most advanced pluggable driver model of any mainstream OS and that it is laughable to suggest it requires improvement to catch up; because they know it is correct.