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Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

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51–60 of 60 posts

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#51
post #32

Ridiculous. Flagged. Stop whining for the love of god. Why not also whine about how your local cinema refuses to show your home movie!

What's ridiculous is I just looked at the posts you've made over the last few days and half of them are just like this (e.g. complain about the topic and insult everyone participating)

If you don't like something why don't you try just clicking away.

Edit: And for those down voting this comment I say the same thing to you: Just click away for God's sakes. There are almost 50 comments here so clearly people want to discuss this. Let Them! Just ignore it and move on to topics you're interested in. Stop trying to control what other people are allowed to do.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#52
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I did. I assume your objection is that racism isn't in the same league as what Apple is doing. I agree with you on that. But the government doesn't take a stance on racism. If Government was taking a stance on racism then they wouldn't allow racist literature to be distributed (as just one example). But they do allow that meaning racism isn't the issue. So the question at hand is fairness not racism. Which bring…

First off, please stop mixing labor law and human rights into this. That's so idiotic, it's not funny. Especially since there isn't even an employment relationship involved here. The app-store is a digital retail store. You are free to develop an iPhone app and offer it to them. They are free to reject it. Just like you are free to develop a better mousetrap and offer it to WalMart - and they are free to reject it. I…

So an employment relationship that would cost an individual money is completely different from a company devoting resources to an application only to have it arbitrarily rejected which costs a whole company worth of people money?

In truth it's exactly the same thing you just refuse to see it because you're so set in your opinion.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Airwaves" are not infrastructure. Apple and AT&T do have government-granted privileges (such as limited liability and the huge swath of regulations which assist larger and existing corporations against their customers and smaller competitors), but regulations for and against don't "balance"; handing someone a candy bar does not give you the right to tell them what to do.

handing someone a candy bar does not give you the right to tell them what to do OK, let's stop giving away candy bars then. What's in it for me?

I agree that we should stop giving away candy bars, but I don't understand your question.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In time, the market will self-correct if Apple behaves poorly enough. But I think it's important to remember that self-correction might take a long time. We're dealing with platforms -- large systems to which people commit their data. We're also dealing with a two-faced community: developers and consumers. It's going to take a lot more than unfair developer treatment to get many people to switch away from iTunes. App…

Absolutely. These things take a long time to work themselves out. There's also a case to be made, which is made by every monopoly, that having a single player actually advances things in the public interest. In other words, by having Apple control so much, the future of smartphones in general is actually advanced much farther than if they didn't. I don't buy this argument as a general rule, but parts of it do seem to…

I'm not disagreeing with you but I hope you at least understand that the world you describe hasn't existed since Teddy Roosevelt picked up "The Jungle" in 1906. Since then Government has made a business out of trying to manipulate the market in a way that speeds along the positive aspects and eliminates the negative ones. A trend we all know has reached epic proportions with the current bail outs.

So, for better or worse, we are a long long way from a Government that only intervenes when there's a monopoly.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. These things take a long time to work themselves out. There's also a case to be made, which is made by every monopoly, that having a single player actually advances things in the public interest. In other words, by having Apple control so much, the future of smartphones in general is actually advanced much farther than if they didn't. I don't buy this argument as a general rule, but parts of it do seem to…

I'm not disagreeing with you but I hope you at least understand that the world you describe hasn't existed since Teddy Roosevelt picked up "The Jungle" in 1906. Since then Government has made a business out of trying to manipulate the market in a way that speeds along the positive aspects and eliminates the negative ones. A trend we all know has reached epic proportions with the current bail outs. So, for better or w…

So, for better or worse, we are a long long way from a Government that only intervenes when there's a monopoly.

We are where we want to be. The poster asked the question of should government intervene. To say that "government will intervene whether we want to or not" is to engage in circular reasoning. One supposes that in order to ask the question, there must be a choice for the answerer to make.

I also have heard this "those were the old times" argument quite a bit lately, and its wearing thin for me. To some degree, yes, government has intervened and mucked around with markets. But to a larger degree it hasn't. And the decision to muck around or not, last I checked, was a political one, not done simply because times have changed. It's very much debatable whether government intervention in various markets constitute a good or bad thing.

Teddy was a smart man. So was Jefferson. We continue to find and address these issues as we can, doing the best with what light we have.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that a handicap doesn't have to be a physical or mental disability. There are serious asymmetries of information that handicap all of us, even the smartest. To take your example, I'd say that ingredients are listed on food so that consumers have the same information as the producers. People with allergies are just a particular subset of consumers who benefit from the level information playing field. An…

I carefully framed the world "disability" above to mean some disadvantage you were either born with or acquired very young, something that's fundamentally unfair or injust. You can't choose to be allergic, you can't work very hard and eventually overcome your allergies. Fate just struck you, and that's that. I'm not sure I view 'information asymmetries' in the same light. Clearly some information (like passphrases or…

First let me state that I don't think there's a role for government intervention in the case of the iPhone or iTunes right now. I am absolutely advocating for people to make a decision not to own Apple products based on the way they are treating their customers.

Now to the point. I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I mean by information asymmetry. Obviously there is a trade-off between the consumer's right to know and a company's or an individual's right to privacy. I don't think anyone would say it's ok to force SJ to open his inbox in order to have that information spread widely.

But there are times when the benefit of open information outweighs the cost imposed. And sometimes the only way to reliably eliminate information asymmetries is for the government to step in, because the free market isn't capable of self-imposed openness.

Consider cigarettes. No, I wasn't born with an inability to discover that cigarettes are highly addictive and likely cause lung cancer. I could have done a bunch of research and maybe run some experiments to determine those things. But before the landmark Surgeon General's warning in 1966 tobacco companies had pretty effectively suppressed that information. Things started to change when that warning was required on every pack of cigarettes so that every consumer was at least aware of the risks of smoking.

This is the kind of information asymmetry that the government (and you) should care about eliminating. When companies wield (political, economic, etc.) power to keep consumers in the dark. No we're not disadvantaged from birth, we're disadvantaged due to lack of resources. I think you'd be surprised how bad many aspects of our lives would be without government intervention in a lot of information asymmetry situations.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if we accept the actions needed for the public to make Apple change are not things that will ever happen But see, I don't accept that premise. For one thing, the CEO of Google just quit the Apple board, which I read as a little more than just "Too many meetings I can't take part of." For another thing, people aren't blindly loyal (except to themselves, perhaps). A mac wasn't the first computer you ever bought. A…

A few things... The CEO of Google quitting the Apple board is way different from what you describe. The actions you described would cost companies thousands if not millions of dollars and that's not going to happen. Injustice is the denial of justice and justice is defined as "the quality of being just or fair". Denying people their rights is an injustice but only because it's unfair to do it. In the end the issue is…

It's in Google's interest to stop dealing with Apple. They're in half the same markets. Far from costing millions of dollars, making the iPhone less attractive would be a good technical move, and positing as the open option would be a good market play.

You're confusing fairness with equality. Apple isn't being equal--it's treating some developers differently than others. But it's certainly being fair--following the terms it laid out in the SDK agreement.

This isn't about "making the company define how they interact with the public". Developers aren't the public. We're talking about publishing terms between developers and apple, and consumers only enter into the picture as an (albiet necessary) third party.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I carefully framed the world "disability" above to mean some disadvantage you were either born with or acquired very young, something that's fundamentally unfair or injust. You can't choose to be allergic, you can't work very hard and eventually overcome your allergies. Fate just struck you, and that's that. I'm not sure I view 'information asymmetries' in the same light. Clearly some information (like passphrases or…

First let me state that I don't think there's a role for government intervention in the case of the iPhone or iTunes right now. I am absolutely advocating for people to make a decision not to own Apple products based on the way they are treating their customers. Now to the point. I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I mean by information asymmetry. Obviously there is a trade-off between the consumer's right to…

What the cigarette companies perpetrated in the 60s was fraud. This was not mere 'information asymmetry'--this was flat-out lying about what was in a product, which is its own special category of badness (to start with, it's a breach of contract, in some sense). Also, as an important (but logically irrelevant) corollary, people died.

I don't think that "information asymmetry" is ever sufficient cause for government action. And I don't think "there is a trade-off between the consumer's right to know and a company's... right to privacy". That's a weak tautology, like saying "People shouldn't have to walk through metal detectors, and should still be perfectly safe in planes." It's vague enough to be agreeable without actually having said anything.

It's easy enough to look at the Hoover Dam and say "Look at this dam! Without government intervention this dam would not exist!" The fallacy is to suggest that the choice is between the hoover dam and nothing. In fact, it's the choice between the dam and where the money would have been spent. Was the hoover dam better than whatever the market could have done with the money? I don't know, but that's an extremely difficult position to argue--you have to argue against everything.

What you're saying is, basically, the government intervened to force companies to give us information. Is that good? I'm not so sure. We started (seriously, anyway) regulating the financial markets shortly after the great depression. Then the market got too complicated for the regulators, and it crashed, so we wrote more complicated regulation. Wash, rinse, repeat. There are still as many Madoffs today as there were in the 1890s--the only operative difference is that they've been regulated into a complexity that could potentially fool even me. Meanwhile startups are too scared to IPO, which is the secret cost everybody overlooks (what we would build with the hoover dam).

By and large, you still have the same percentage of bad apples. Information has simply inflated over the years. Still the same asymmetries, just a higher floor.

And what's really perverse about the whole thing--you see huge gains in the floor during the highest asymmetries. Think about the great economic booms--railroads, industrial revolution, even recently with MS Windows and/or Office. These are periods of huge economic growth, of technology raising everyone's standards of living. And they're the periods of patents, of lawsuits, anticompetiveness, and huge economic disparities.

At the risk of committing a huge causal fallacy, I posit that asymmetry, informational or otherwise, is necessary for these gains. Or at least more necessary than most of us feel comfortable with.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I hope you at least understand that the world you describe hasn't existed since Teddy Roosevelt picked up "The Jungle" in 1906. Since then Government has made a business out of trying to manipulate the market in a way that speeds along the positive aspects and eliminates the negative ones. A trend we all know has reached epic proportions with the current bail outs. So, for better or w…

So, for better or worse, we are a long long way from a Government that only intervenes when there's a monopoly. We are where we want to be. The poster asked the question of should government intervene. To say that "government will intervene whether we want to or not" is to engage in circular reasoning. One supposes that in order to ask the question, there must be a choice for the answerer to make. I also have heard t…

It would be circular logic if "Government Intervention" was a single thing rather than a designation that applies to a myriad of things.

My issue with your line of reasoning is that it's academic. You're making an argument based on a model of Monopoly = Government Intervention and that's not where we are anymore.

Re: Poll: Do You Have A Problem With This Statement

#60

I voted Yes, I'd have a problem with this. Sounds like a common sense idea, but the implementation would be horrific. How exactly do you set the standards for this? You can't make a law especially for Apple, so you have to legislate ... what exactly?

I'm not sure I see why this would be hard. I'd say the law could look something like this... "Companies who create computing environments that are not open to all applications must clearly define the acceptance criteria for developers wishing to create applications for those environments" I guess there will always be some ambiguity (What's "clearly " for example) but anything is an improvement over what we have now.

How about a criteria that says "we will not accept applications that are crap or that make us look bad or dilute the pool of good applications"? Because this seems like it's what Apple is doing. Now whether they are doing their filtering well is a different matter.

I don't see why government needs to be brought into this. Do we really need a "computing platform fairness czar"?

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