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What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

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Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#91
post #27

Some of the comments here claim this is just showing how engineers think they are the only smart ones, or how there's equal frustration pointed back at engineers. However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. This particular weight doesn't fall on any other role. It's easy for anyone, including eng…

However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. That's not true. Almost every role is a specialty, and almost every role requires translating requirements from others who do not understand the solution space into solutions which meet that requirement, and explaining just what is possible and what is…

The meeting in the video wasn't funny as a caricature because it portrays everyone around the developer as idiots, though I suppose it is a brilliant unintentional caricature of the way an ignorant specialist might see the world. In real life, the clients are not idiots, they just have conflicting requirements, and don't understand the solution space, but they usually understand the problem space better than the developer and should be seen as a mine of information and gently guided away from making decisions they don't understand.

The topic of the video isn't that everyone else is an idiot, it's that they are not deferring to the person they themselves acknowledge to be the expert to provide expert insight, perspective, knowledge, and requirements gathering. The expert says "you can't have seven lines that are all perpendicular to each other", those outlining the requirements challenge the expert on that, as if the expert is lying or making the service provider look bad by saying something is impossible. "You're the expert, figure it out". "Are you saying that, as an expert, you can't do this?". "Ignore geometry". Trying to get to the bottom of what the requirements actually are (which is often, in my experience, a misapplication, misunderstanding, or misdefinition of terms) is considered being difficult or not being a team player.

Also in my experience, the problem arises when the engineer is brought in the last and final stages after everyone else has already spent significant time on "the problem", and are married to their unworkable solution. The solution isn't necessarily unworkable because it's actually impossible, but often it's because what's been requested and sold to everyone else (read: upper management) is actually too expensive to implement. This is also where undoable aggressive schedules come from. Make no mistake, just about everyone is bad at estimating time and effort when it comes to software projects (this is well documented, at least in the lore), but if only two weeks of time/money are budgeted for what the engineer thinks is a four week project (even if it's actually an eight week project), no one wants to hear it. And it's easy to blame the person who was last to the party.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#92
post #42

Why is the engineer Asian and male? While it's an amusing skit, it's horribly typecasting. How about a black woman for a change?

Um, because the stereotype of an engineer is a male, Japan is often associated with engineering and having the engineer be the only one of visually different nationality emphasizes the divide between techinal and non technical. Yes, it is horrible typecasting like every character in that clip and that is the point.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. That's not true. Almost every role is a specialty, and almost every role requires translating requirements from others who do not understand the solution space into solutions which meet that requirement, and explaining just what is possible and what is…

The meeting in the video wasn't funny as a caricature because it portrays everyone around the developer as idiots, though I suppose it is a brilliant unintentional caricature of the way an ignorant specialist might see the world. In real life, the clients are not idiots, they just have conflicting requirements, and don't understand the solution space, but they usually understand the problem space better than the deve…

Trying to get to the bottom of what the requirements actually are (which is often, in my experience, a misapplication, misunderstanding, or misdefinition of terms) is considered being difficult or not being a team player.

There are usually ways of dealing with this situation without confrontation or hostility though, and the distinction between requirements and solutions is an important one - in this case the client tried to present a solution when they should be stating the problem. I find most clients are happy to rewind and state the problem, and it helps a lot in presenting an alternative solution if you can then say - well this other solution solves your problem (and is not impossible given other constraints!).

I'm not defending the clients in this video, who are made to act as idiots parroting obviously absurd lines, what I'm questioning is whether this is even a caricature of reality. I think it's more an accurate representation of the world view that some people retreat to when faced with difficult clients who don't understand solutions and want impossible things (and we've all met them).

Sure there are political considerations and sometimes companies are completely dysfunctional - in that case it's best to fire the client or job and move on, but it's very rare in my experience as a developer or designer to come across that. If you can't do your job in a given setup, and can't push back, the best option is to leave, because you can't fix that and it is an unhealthy situation for all parties.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#94

This shouldn't be too hard. Just draw lines in 7 dimensions and accellerate them away from the viewer such that the color shifts so it is red. in fact, you only need to do three, because the other four can be discussed as being drawn in transparent ink and aligned in higher dimensions.

(note, the budget for such a proposition might not far exceed a few trillion dollars.)

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#95
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The training is what provides the ability to charge for admission and airtime royalties for games. The meeting is what gives you a product or service offering. The cost analysis of the meeting is however helpful to make people realize that there's way too many people in that meeting. It's just like a sports team where half of the players are not actively training while you're paying them all. And on top of that, th…

Those are still aspects which are best analyzed via opportunity cost than on a billable hours basis.

While I do agree with you that the opportunity cost based analysis is better, I do want to point out that for this context (or any context where this might be the case) the opportunity cost of doing an opportunity cost based analysis might be high enough to warrant opting for the inferior but easier/cheaper cost based analysis.

Of course there might be an easier way to quantify the opportunity cost that I can't think of.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#96
post #30

Stupid engineer...just draw the thing in an 11-dimensional space, and he would have gotten transparency and perpendicularity. No wonder he got talked down by management.

Really, he should draw the first three dimensions of red lines in transparent ink, and the higher-dimentional ones we cannot perceive in green ink.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And in fact, here, a realistic question might be: "Would you like me to draw a kitten using only 7 red lines that, where they cross, are perpendicular?"

Exactly my thought with the 7 lines, but I didn't think to make look like a kitten.

I think the idea here is that in the non-mathematical world, a curved line is still a line. You can draw a pretty dang good anything with curved lines. The problem might just be this sort of simple misunderstanding.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#98
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside, how could you get zeroed out of a billion dolloar company where you worked at, and also funded?

I think he meant that he invested his gains from a bn-$-company in this startup and it failed.

No. I mean the startup in question went on to be worth about a billion dollars (last I checked), but the stock I bought from them was turned into wastepaper through some mechanism that I don't understand. Might have been a rescue job of some kind. Maybe they're lying and owe me a bunch of money. I don't know.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are still aspects which are best analyzed via opportunity cost than on a billable hours basis.

While I do agree with you that the opportunity cost based analysis is better, I do want to point out that for this context (or any context where this might be the case) the opportunity cost of doing an opportunity cost based analysis might be high enough to warrant opting for the inferior but easier/cheaper cost based analysis. Of course there might be an easier way to quantify the opportunity cost that I can't think…

"Is the the best possible use of our time, collectively, and/or of each of us, individually, for the organization and our collective goals?"

I suspect you'll find that more effective people tend to recognize when they're in a meeting they 1) don't need to be in and 2) which is keeping them from doing something more important.

Socializing, strengthening group cohesion, and other organizational (as opposed to individualistic) objectives may mean that even if you personally perceive greater benefit at being elsewhere, the organizational / collective goal may still trump, which is why that's included in the metric.

The concern isn't to do a thorough evaluation where that's not itself cost-effective, but to use the correct basis for measurement. Deciding on imperfect information is perfectly acceptable. Deciding on the wrong basis should really be avoided where possible.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#100

Glad to see this finally making it on the front page. I'm particularly impressed with the actors' ability to capture the subtle facial expressions and other mannerisms that the various characters tend to make in real life under various situations. Direct YT link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg ============================================================ My favorite bit... PHB: "That's it. Now you've conf…

I agree that this bit is fantastic. Can't count the number of times I've encountered each one of these tropes. The power of positive thinking will allow us to do the impossible and so on.

Though there's considerable competition for the spot, I'm coming to the conclusion that wishful thinking (of the utterly unjustified sort) is quite probably humanity's most crushing weakness.
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