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What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

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Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm not thinking clearly - it's late here - but wouldn't 8-space suffice?

7 dimensions is the trivial minimum for 7 mutual |_ (the axis) Also, if you ease the restriction to each line perpendicular to every line it intercepts, you can get as many lines as you want in 3d already.

> if you ease the restriction to each line perpendicular to every line it intercepts, you can get as many lines as you want in 3d already.

That works in 2d space, too. Parallel lines don't intercept any more than skew lines.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#82
post #27

Some of the comments here claim this is just showing how engineers think they are the only smart ones, or how there's equal frustration pointed back at engineers. However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. This particular weight doesn't fall on any other role. It's easy for anyone, including eng…

However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality.

That's not true. Almost every role is a specialty, and almost every role requires translating requirements from others who do not understand the solution space into solutions which meet that requirement, and explaining just what is possible and what is not. Just as one example, designers translate things like 'I need this text to read better' to adjusting the leading, measure, weight, size and font to something appropriate while meeting the other existing constraints. You could think of examples like that for almost every specialty, including designers, business people and accountants, who do things the developers don't understand (but might think must be trivial, because they don't understand them) which are just as vital for the company. There are also plenty of examples outside the fields developers interact with (engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers etc).

The meeting in the video wasn't funny as a caricature because it portrays everyone around the developer as idiots, though I suppose it is a brilliant unintentional caricature of the way an ignorant specialist might see the world. In real life, the clients are not idiots, they just have conflicting requirements, and don't understand the solution space, but they usually understand the problem space better than the developer and should be seen as a mine of information and gently guided away from making decisions they don't understand. A developer (or any other specialty) seeing the world this way is a bad developer IMO, and someone facing something approaching this situation in real life should just get another job, as clearly working for idiots is a losing proposition.

Back in real life, both design and development require very similar skills - refining requirements, proposing solutions which will work, persuading clients as to the best solutions, taking on board their ideas and adjustments gracefully without compromising the technical constraints. The issue of dealing with clients who don't know exactly what they want or what is possible is probably similar in a lot of other domains, and the laziest solution is to call them idiots and dismiss their concerns.

What I'd do in this situation is ask the client to rewind and state the problem (our lines clash and we can't change the colour or make them see-through), not a proposed solution (7 perpendicular red lines, one of which is green and transparent).

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why", or "what do you want to do" are two of the most useful questions in my arsenal. Often a client (or user you're trying to assist) is 2-3 steps past their initial requirement when they ask for some technical solution. Backtracking to the base problem often suggests a far more useful and viable approach. The video sketch shown here isn't so much an illustration of what it's like to be the only technical person in…

This is true for any meeting where a specialist is outnumbered and the other folks have already made up their mind.

You can't avoid the initial state problem.

What you can do is recognize and either 1) correct it or 2) realize you're working with incompetents (e.g., everyone in the video sketch, engineer included).

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#84
post #42

Why is the engineer Asian and male? While it's an amusing skit, it's horribly typecasting. How about a black woman for a change?

I noticed this, but even without race and gender the characters are profoundly stereotyped—intentionally exaggerated for effect.

At least, I hope there aren't real-life Certified Red Line Experts running around, nor designers hoping to draw red lines in green ink…

Taken too literally, this sketch could be offensive to all of women, portrayed as clueless; male executives, portrayed as willfully ignorant and over-demanding; Asians, portrayed as obviously engineers; non-Asians, portrayed as obviously not engineers; engineers, portrayed as incapable of working backwards from impossible requirements to find a solution that actually works; and probably other groups I've forgotten.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#85
This video highlights two separate problems: unacceptable behavior, and ignorance. One should never sneer at one's coworkers, or openly mock them or undermine them. Doesn't matter if it's an engineer or a janitor, in my view. No-one should put up with being treated like that, ever, and I think you'd be better off just quitting, on the spot.

The matter of the project ignorance is itself is another matter. When faced with well-meaning but confused stake-holders, the correct solution is not to throw errors like a compiler (which is what the eng in the video does), but rather to probe for more information to understand the context of the request, and work toward a workable solution. Ignoring line ink and geometry, step back and ask: where will these lines be drawn? Who will see them? What information are they trying to convey? Of course, these are the same questions that would ruin the conceit of the sketch, but that's the solution to this riddle.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#86
post #79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been a developer, contract developer, consulting analyst, and consulting architect, I can say you are right. There are challenges for business analysts, similar to this. But it's not the same league. Technology often comes down to "it can be done" or "it can't be done without a lot more effort than you are willing to pay for". Sure, a business analyst may have similar problems ("this process works" vs. "this p…

So you think BA's can not learn, even through experience, what can or can not be done? Sure, there's always somebody else, same role or not, who has more expertise, but don't confuse role/title for expertise. I've seen BA's with a decade of experience school junior engineers on what can or can not be done.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

It's that when it comes down to actually making it work, it's the engineer that has to provide a working solution to the specification. Not a figurative engineer with years of experience and knowledge. The actual person that has the task. Pretty much everyone else in the chain has to make assumptions about what is possible, in what time frame, with what resources. Yes, the more experience you have, the better you get at doing that.

But trust me when I say that all too often, even product engineers for million dollar figure products, have little idea if X is possibly in time Y until they actually try and do it. (I've worked at multiple companies with multi-million product licenses, and seen it at all of them). Sure, a few of the delivery engineers had a much better idea. But there was no way any of the analysts, project managers, and especially not the sales engineers, had any clue about the time. You'd get answers from 1/10th Y through to 10 x Y - 10000% variance.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#87
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on business calls where I've literally been offered a job in front of my boss. This happened to be because I had debugged a vendors' appliance and had the opportunity to say to their CTO something like: "You're product is such a piece of crap because it always crashes randomly, I narrowed it down to X and I had to break into the device and recompile the kernel with these flags to make it stop", turns out ma…

Indeed. And in fact, here, a realistic question might be: "Would you like me to draw a kitten using only 7 red lines that, where they cross, are perpendicular?"

Exactly my thought with the 7 lines, but I didn't think to make look like a kitten.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And in fact, here, a realistic question might be: "Would you like me to draw a kitten using only 7 red lines that, where they cross, are perpendicular?"

Exactly my thought with the 7 lines, but I didn't think to make look like a kitten.

Sure but you could make a very crude approximation....

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#89
post #27

Some of the comments here claim this is just showing how engineers think they are the only smart ones, or how there's equal frustration pointed back at engineers. However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. This particular weight doesn't fall on any other role. It's easy for anyone, including eng…

I'm sorry, but it actually effects anyone who is in individual contributor. Even with the caveat for "a work pipeline involving engineering". Linguists doing translation run in to it, designers run in to it, document writers run in to it, even individual sales folks run in to it.

Re: What it is like being the only engineer in a meeting [video]

#90
post #27

Some of the comments here claim this is just showing how engineers think they are the only smart ones, or how there's equal frustration pointed back at engineers. However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. This particular weight doesn't fall on any other role. It's easy for anyone, including eng…

However, this is illustrating a particular problem that only[2] affects engineers -- engineers are the ones at the end of the day who have to make a solution reality. That's not true. Almost every role is a specialty, and almost every role requires translating requirements from others who do not understand the solution space into solutions which meet that requirement, and explaining just what is possible and what is…

It's possible to respect that the other people in the meeting are experts in their own topic and still find the level of misunderstanding hilarious. I work with a team of biologists and I know we all feel like that engineer during meetings.
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