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Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

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Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#61
post #34
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How is Square/Stripe getting around the issue that most exchanges wait for 6 confirmations before a transaction is accepted? Are they ignoring the risk of a double spend and just going ahead once a transaction has propagated to the network for mining?

> How is Square/Stripe getting around the issue that most exchanges wait for 6 confirmations before a transaction is accepted? How do you know they're not getting 6 confirmations? They could just give you a confirmation screen, wait for 6 confirmations, then cancel the order in the rare event that it fails.

They seem to imply this in the blog post: "We will continually monitor this address throughout the checkout process so we know when it has received payment."

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of reasons, actually. This will be a short version of something I'm still in the process of writing, so consider this very high level, broad strokes. Consider "Coinbase" a stand-in for any service like it. I also know that lots of Bitcoin enthusiasts won't agree with me, and that's fine. The most important one is that merchants generally want USD, not BTC. Instant Exchange is a really important fea…

Sorry Steve, I have a lot of respect for everything you're doing at Balanced, but wow.. everything about this is wrong. 1. "Merchants generally want USD, not BTC". Coinbase supports BTC -> USD. It's an exchange. You don't need to use their OAuth to convert BTC to USD. 2. "The UX is vastly superior to using a bare address". If you're using Bitcoin, you better know how to use an address. Not sure how that would be conf…

1. Yes, I understand Instant Exchange is separate. This is about how we wouldn't roll our own solution, _someone_ would be powering our Bitcoin integration.

2. Yes, as I said, if you know what's going on, it won't be weird to you. That said, cart abandonment is a big problem, as is keeping checkout pages as simple as possible.

3. Again, this is where we'll have to disagree. You say "people are using Bitcoin to get away from the credit card paradigm", but I say "people are not using Bitcoin because it's too far away from the credit card paradigm." If the Bitcoin community wants to grow outside of the fringe libertarian set, they'll need to understand people's needs more and their dreams less. I myself stayed away from BTC for years simply because of the rhetoric. People that aren't inherently interested in cryptocurrencies aren't going to use them unless they solve a problem they actually have.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#63

Does anyone have an opinion on why the price of Bitcoin doesn't seem to move on news like this? It seems significant in my opinion and I would think that wider acceptance would lead to a higher price, but that hasn't been the case over the past few weeks / announcements.

It seems to be following a repeating pattern.

* Bitcoin builds infrastructure.

* People notice bitcoin isn't going away

* Media says Bitcoin will make everyone Gazillionairres

* Bitcoin skyrockets until infrastructure comes under strain.

* Something involved with bitcoin breaks

* Media(not neccisarrily the same media) says Bitcoin is all over, and everybody will lose their bitoin, their home, and their dog.

* Price drops.

* Bitcoin builds infrastructure.

* People notice bitcoin isn't going away

We seem be going into the build infrastructure phase. That's where genuine value actually gets added, and doesn't actually stop at the other times, It's just when the craziness is going on it's hard to see from the noise.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your comment, I would guess that you have never had to file a long Schedule D. Accurately tracking your short and long term capital gains and losses is not always as straightforward as it might seem, especially when you have lots of transactions. Additionally, there are often associated matters (such as carryovers) that you wouldn't want to address without the assistance of a qualified professional. Unless y…

Merchants don't need to expose themselves to FX risk to accept Bitcoin. Square does that for you, as do Coinbase, Bitpay, and similar companies. I don't think the tax issues will be prohibitively complicated for consumers. Whichever exchange someone uses to buy Bitcoin and whatever app they use the spend it can easily generate the necessary paperwork. The companies have hundreds of millions of dollars on the line tha…

> Merchants don't need to expose themselves to FX risk to accept Bitcoin. Square does that for you, as do Coinbase, Bitpay, and similar companies.

Allowing your payment provider to handle currency conversion for you does not mean that you have eliminated FX risk. You have simply outsourced it, and you (and in many cases your buyer) almost always pay for this.

> I don't think the tax issues will be prohibitively complicated for consumers. Whichever exchange someone uses to buy Bitcoin and whatever app they use the spend it can easily generate the necessary paperwork.

I suspect you've never had to file a tax return with a significant number of transactions involving capital gains and losses. There are often associated matters, such as carryovers, that the average person will need the services of a tax professional to address.

As for the notion that somebody is going to do the paperwork for you: the nature of Bitcoin makes the generation of the paperwork you refer to incredibly difficult.

Currently, when dealing with securities like stock, brokers must provide you with a 1099-B which reports information about the transaction, including the cost basis and sale proceeds. If you transfer securities between brokers, the broker transferring your securities is required to report the cost basis data to the receiving broker.

To the best of my knowledge, Bitcoin is not a covered security for which institutions must provide a 1099-B, so no third party is obligated to provide you with accurate records. More importantly, it may be impossible for third parties to do this for you. For instance, consider this hypothetical yet almost certainly common transaction scenario:

1. I buy 1 BTC using Provider A.

2. I transfer .5 BTC from my account at Provider A to a local wallet housed on my computer.

3. I later transfer that .5 BTC to Provider B.

4. Using Provider B, I send the .5 BTC to a merchant.

In Step 2, Provider A will be faced with the challenge of determining whether my transfer of .5 BTC represented a sale for tax purposes. It should not, as I was transferring the BTC to myself. But how does Provider A know who I transferred the BTC to?

In Step 3, Provider B has no way of obtaining my cost basis and in Step 4, it is faced with the challenge of determining whether or not the transfer of .5 BTC represented a sale for tax purposes. How does it know that I wasn't transferring the .5 BTC to myself?

Now imagine this across n wallets, including desktop wallets, and with lots of fractions of BTC. You're going to be investing a lot of USD in bookkeeping/accounting.

Bottom line: I can't for the life of me imagine why anybody who actually understands the implications of this would ever use Bitcoin as a currency going forward. As far as I'm concerned, it makes absolutely no sense except as a vehicle for investment or speculation.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#65
I know this is offtopic... but I recently emailed the squareup's support over an issue that got me really mad at their development team (or whoever is reponsible). I was trying to buy some elementary OS stickers as I've been using it for over a year now and I'm extremely happy with it. Turns out you cant order anything from squareup if you are accessing outside of US. What made me write to their support is that there is no notification about it when you try to buy a product. It just shows you "add product to list" button but hides "buy" or add to cart button and does not display any info on why the buttons are missing. I mean... if you implemented a solution that detect non us ips and made an effort to hide the buy button... at the very least put some notification in there. Sometimes I really cant understand stuff like this >.>

My first post here is a rant... dang it.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#67
post #30
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they ignoring the risk of a double spend and just going ahead once a transaction has propagated to the network for mining? After a majority of the nodes have seen a transaction it becomes relatively safe to accept it as valid before 6 confirmations. You wouldn't want to do that for high value transactions, but I think it's fine up to a couple BTC (read: $1000 or less). The Mycelium wallet implements transaction…

You can't determine what the majority of the nodes thinks in this way because of Sybil attacks. Otherwise we wouldn't need proof of work as a consensus mechanism. Mycelium's "transaction confidence" feature is well intentioned but it is a disaster waiting to happen.

I agree with you, but I don't think it would be worth the effort to conduct this attack for such low value transactions. I'm certainly not an expert here, and clearly the blockchain is the only source of truth in the end.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#68
Sort of starting to feel like all the crappy Bitcoin-specific businesses are about to get replaced by their "normal" equivalents who will just suddenly start taking Bitcoin. Much less disruption than new privacy/security/anonymity focused companies who were early Bitcoin adopters replacing old institutions, but much more likely to actually work.

Kind of the equivalent of NYT becoming a major website for news, rather than something organic to the Internet becoming the main news site of record.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#69

Does anyone have an opinion on why the price of Bitcoin doesn't seem to move on news like this? It seems significant in my opinion and I would think that wider acceptance would lead to a higher price, but that hasn't been the case over the past few weeks / announcements.

the real answer is it is being overshadowed by the fact that one of the exchanges stopped allowing CNY withdrawals. I don't think any of the other answerers actually follow bitcoin.

Deposits have been restricted at this time, not withdrawals.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#70

Does anyone have an opinion on why the price of Bitcoin doesn't seem to move on news like this? It seems significant in my opinion and I would think that wider acceptance would lead to a higher price, but that hasn't been the case over the past few weeks / announcements.

If anything the price should go down. When people buy things with bitcoins they are effectively selling bitcoins transitively driving the price down. If you want the price go up there have to be incentives to buy stuff with bitcoins such as lower prices. For many people it is cheaper to use bitcoins because they bought-in early, but that would be equivalent of cashing out their position and exposing their identity to the merchant, which most of the early adopters either don't want to do or would have done already when it was more favorable.
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