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Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

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Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I transfer stock to you with three taps on my phone? Bitcoin makes far more sense than stock as currency, especially if higher sustained demand reduces fluctuations in value, which isn't typical for stocks.

Based on your comment, I would guess that you have never had to file a long Schedule D. Accurately tracking your short and long term capital gains and losses is not always as straightforward as it might seem, especially when you have lots of transactions. Additionally, there are often associated matters (such as carryovers) that you wouldn't want to address without the assistance of a qualified professional. Unless y…

Merchants don't need to expose themselves to FX risk to accept Bitcoin. Square does that for you, as do Coinbase, Bitpay, and similar companies.

I don't think the tax issues will be prohibitively complicated for consumers. Whichever exchange someone uses to buy Bitcoin and whatever app they use the spend it can easily generate the necessary paperwork. The companies have hundreds of millions of dollars on the line that require Bitcoin to be easy to use. They're going to do it.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#52

Does anyone have an opinion on why the price of Bitcoin doesn't seem to move on news like this? It seems significant in my opinion and I would think that wider acceptance would lead to a higher price, but that hasn't been the case over the past few weeks / announcements.

the real answer is it is being overshadowed by the fact that one of the exchanges stopped allowing CNY withdrawals. I don't think any of the other answerers actually follow bitcoin.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh gotcha. Yes, we believe that's a pretty important distinction. Fair enough!

What's the reason for this? Is it part of Coinbase's payment integration? I don't recall any other websites doing this (although there's the possibility that I simply haven't used other sites that also do this)

There are a couple of reasons, actually. This will be a short version of something I'm still in the process of writing, so consider this very high level, broad strokes. Consider "Coinbase" a stand-in for any service like it. I also know that lots of Bitcoin enthusiasts won't agree with me, and that's fine.

The most important one is that merchants generally want USD, not BTC. Instant Exchange is a really important feature of Coinbase, and so even if we did support bare addresses, they would still be generated through Coinbase anyway, because giving our merchants USD is killer. Since Balanced isn't interested in getting in the business of holding and selling BTC, we'd need to do that through some sort of service, and Coinbase is the biggest and best one.

Secondly, the UX for Coinbase-only payment is vastly superior to using bare addresses. People are generally familiar with "sign in via Facebook," and Coinbase's OAuth works the same way. Using a Bitcoin wallet to buy something on a site is very strange until you've done it a few times. Enthusiasts will know what's going on, just like any early adopter will. But for most cases, Coinbase only is waaaay better.

Coinbase Coinbase transactions have another special property: they can be off-blockchain. I don't remember offhand if they are for all purchases, but they are for microtransactions, at least. Coinbase can (could?) not wait for the ten minutes to confirm a transaction, since they'd just be updating balances within Coinbase itself. They could build options in that consumers have come to expect, like chargebacks, holds, and other things, that the protocol would not inherently have to support.

Next, we feel that Bitcoin is best thought of as cash. Like, physical, printed notes. Websites don't actually accept USD, for example: they accept Visa, which is a financial instrument that happens to be denominated in USD. You can't mail a twenty dollar bill to most SaaS products: that'd be really silly, for a number of reasons. Using bitcoin-qt is like paying with cash, and paying with cash works great in some ways, but is a pain in others. Chargebacks, for example, are an incredibly important part of the advantage consumers see in using credit cards, and nothing like that exists with 'raw' Bitcoin in any significant capacity.

I guess that could all be summed up with "Most people don't actually use cash, because it's pretty inconvenient. They use a financial instrument on top of cash, because it offers a bunch of advantages for online purchases. A successful Bitcoin will be no different."

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#54
post #46
post #3

How is Square/Stripe getting around the issue that most exchanges wait for 6 confirmations before a transaction is accepted? Are they ignoring the risk of a double spend and just going ahead once a transaction has propagated to the network for mining?

Is this Square? Square up has a different logo and looks a little more like generic bootstrap. I'm not sure if they're related or just an auction site with a similar name. Edit: yep, see https://www.squaremarket.com/about , this is not the US payment company most people on HN would call 'square' but an auction site started by Oxford grads.

No, it is Square Up. See https://squareup.com/market

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the reason for this? Is it part of Coinbase's payment integration? I don't recall any other websites doing this (although there's the possibility that I simply haven't used other sites that also do this)

There are a couple of reasons, actually. This will be a short version of something I'm still in the process of writing, so consider this very high level, broad strokes. Consider "Coinbase" a stand-in for any service like it. I also know that lots of Bitcoin enthusiasts won't agree with me, and that's fine. The most important one is that merchants generally want USD, not BTC. Instant Exchange is a really important fea…

> Next, we feel that Bitcoin is best thought of as cash. Like, physical, printed notes. Websites don't actually accept USD, for example: they accept Visa, which is a financial instrument that happens to be denominated in USD. You can't mail a twenty dollar bill to most SaaS products: that'd be really silly, for a number of reasons.

But that's... why people want to pay for things with Bitcoins in the first place. They want to give you cash, digitally. If they didn't want the properties of cash, they'd just cash out their bitcoins into a regular bank account, and then use a regular credit card backed by that bank account to pay. That is far, far easier, and far more well-supported by current infrastructure. The fact that they're willing to suffer the vagaries of the Bitcoin system is precisely because they have a problem with using a "financial instrument built on top of cash."

Unless you accept Bitcoins with cash-like transaction semantics, you aren't going to get any transactions going through your system that weren't already going through it. Some people will choose to re-denominate transactions they could well have made in USD in BTC, but nobody's going to choose to pay with BTC where they previously wouldn't have paid at all. People who don't spend money unless it's in BTC are doing that because of BTC's cash-like transaction semantics, not because their wealth is somehow immutably denominated in BTC.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of reasons, actually. This will be a short version of something I'm still in the process of writing, so consider this very high level, broad strokes. Consider "Coinbase" a stand-in for any service like it. I also know that lots of Bitcoin enthusiasts won't agree with me, and that's fine. The most important one is that merchants generally want USD, not BTC. Instant Exchange is a really important fea…

> Next, we feel that Bitcoin is best thought of as cash. Like, physical, printed notes. Websites don't actually accept USD, for example: they accept Visa, which is a financial instrument that happens to be denominated in USD. You can't mail a twenty dollar bill to most SaaS products: that'd be really silly, for a number of reasons. But that's... why people want to pay for things with Bitcoins in the first place. They…

Currently, some number of people who use Bitcoin do, yes. There are also some people who only use open source software because they want full control, and there are some people who have piles of cash and gold underneath their mattresses.

Some don't. I personally happen to have some Bitcoin because people wanted to buy some things from me in Bitcoin, and spending it again directly as Bitcoin is waaay easier than trying to figure out how to convert it to USD for the sake of spending it again.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#57
post #11

Curious if they are going to take a lower transaction fee on Bitcoin payments as opposed to credit card purchases. They really should.

given that bitcoin processing fees are on par with credit card processing fees (http://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction-percent), i bet they won't.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#58
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Next, we feel that Bitcoin is best thought of as cash. Like, physical, printed notes. Websites don't actually accept USD, for example: they accept Visa, which is a financial instrument that happens to be denominated in USD. You can't mail a twenty dollar bill to most SaaS products: that'd be really silly, for a number of reasons. But that's... why people want to pay for things with Bitcoins in the first place. They…

Currently, some number of people who use Bitcoin do, yes. There are also some people who only use open source software because they want full control, and there are some people who have piles of cash and gold underneath their mattresses. Some don't. I personally happen to have some Bitcoin because people wanted to buy some things from me in Bitcoin, and spending it again directly as Bitcoin is waaay easier than tryin…

I would guess that you're in the category of "people who would have made a transaction in USD anyway, but will do it in BTC because they happen to have some and want to get rid of it." Adding "accept BTC" as a feature doesn't win you as a customer; you were already willing. If the point of accepting BTC is to make money for Square Market by increasing its user-base, your vote doesn't count.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the reason for this? Is it part of Coinbase's payment integration? I don't recall any other websites doing this (although there's the possibility that I simply haven't used other sites that also do this)

There are a couple of reasons, actually. This will be a short version of something I'm still in the process of writing, so consider this very high level, broad strokes. Consider "Coinbase" a stand-in for any service like it. I also know that lots of Bitcoin enthusiasts won't agree with me, and that's fine. The most important one is that merchants generally want USD, not BTC. Instant Exchange is a really important fea…

Sorry Steve, I have a lot of respect for everything you're doing at Balanced, but wow.. everything about this is wrong.

1. "Merchants generally want USD, not BTC". Coinbase supports BTC -> USD. It's an exchange. You don't need to use their OAuth to convert BTC to USD.

2. "The UX is vastly superior to using a bare address". If you're using Bitcoin, you better know how to use an address. Not sure how that would be confusing to anyone using Bitcoin. Most sites use bare address + QR code.

3. "You can't mail a twenty dollar bill to most SaaS products". This is what Bitcoin solves! People are using Bitcoin to get away from the credit card paradigm. This is a broken implementation of "accepting BTC". You don't accept BTC, you accept Coinbase.

Re: Square Market Accepts Bitcoin

#60

Does anyone have an opinion on why the price of Bitcoin doesn't seem to move on news like this? It seems significant in my opinion and I would think that wider acceptance would lead to a higher price, but that hasn't been the case over the past few weeks / announcements.

Wider acceptance takes time to affect the price, it's more of a long term rather than short term price driver. If anything, in the near term something like this puts selling pressure on BTC because the first people to give this a try are going to be people who already own Bitcoin and Square's merchants probably aren't holding any BTC sales proceeds.
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